Social Anxiety in Groups of Gay Men

[00:00:04] Michael Diiorio: Hello everyone, and welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper. This is a podcast by the Gay Men’s Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality.

We are your hosts. We have Matt Landsiedel. He is a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment.

Reno Johnston is a spiritual life, love and business coach. And I am Michael Di Orio, a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and self-confidence.

We each have our own private practice and, in this podcast, we’re sharing all of our best stuff.

Today we’re talking about social anxiety in groups of gay men.

The questions we’ll be unpacking today are what kinds of situations stir up social anxiety for you, and why do you think that is?

What strategies have you found helpful in managing your social anxiety in group situations? Looking forward to talking about this today with you guys. For our audience and listeners out there, reminder that we’ll be continuing this discussion on the last Thursday of the month in the gay Men’s Brotherhood sharing circles. We also have our connection circles on the second Thursday of the month, which are smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss the topics of the podcast with other members of the community.

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All right, today we’re talking about social anxiety as a broader topic, and then more specifically, social anxiety in groups of gay men.

So I did a bit of research on this topic before we jump in. So I want to share a little bit of that with you guys. That’ll help get the ball rolling. So the definition of social anxiety, one that I found, is that it is the feeling of intense fear or worry about social situations. It can make people afraid of being judged, embarrassed, or humiliated in front of others.

Now, I know this feeling well. It’s something that I’ve struggled with in the past, and I still do from time to time, and I’ll talk about that later, but for a long time, it’s affected me in my career, specifically because I was afraid of speaking up in meetings and even refused certain jobs and didn’t apply for certain jobs even though I wanted them, because that job would require me to be in front of people more often, and I just didn’t want to do it. So that kind of got to me. It also impacted in my personal life my ability to make friends, because for a long time, and I still do from time to time, I was so in my head in group environments that I wasn’t even fully present, and I wasn’t able to really connect with people. I was kind of. I was like, am I being awkward? And then I was being awkward because I was thinking about being awkward, and it was just a hot mess of a situation inside my mind. So it was a barrier to connection. And like I said, it does continue to flare from time to time, and we’ll talk a bit more about that later. Now, not all social anxiety is the same, and I want us to think about it on a spectrum or a scale, rather, from one to four. Okay. And I’ll go through those quickly with you. Now, level one would be mild. This is feeling nervous before presentation or maybe nervous before meeting some new people. It’s a feeling, like a self-conscious feeling or worry just about being awkward, similar to what I was just explaining. But you’re still able to attend, you’re still able to participate, you’re still able to engage. It’s uncomfortable, but manageable.

Then there’s level two. We’ll call that moderate. This is where you’re avoiding certain social situations, like parties or bars or large gatherings, perhaps because there’s a fear or anxiety that’s so strong, so you just avoid them. And if you do attend, you may go there and overthink and overanalyze all of your interactions with other people. So thoughts in your mind might be like, oh, my God. I shouldn’t have said that. I shouldn’t have done that. I look so out of place here. People are talking about me, people are laughing at me. And so you have this visceral discomfort in these large gatherings or in some social gatherings.

The third level is severe. This is an intense fear and avoidance of social situations, including everyday interactions like going to the store or striking up a conversation with other people in an everyday situation, like in an elevator, for example. And a key marker of the severe is that it starts to interfere with your daily life, whereas with one and two, it doesn’t interfere so much with your daily life. Okay. And then the fourth level is social anxiety disorder. This is a diagnosed mental health condition. And it’s when your social anxiety is so severe that it causes significant problems in your professional and personal life. It’s a constant fear of social situations. You’re avoiding them at all costs. And there’s even physical manifestations and physical symptoms like sweating, trembling and nausea. Now, this was meant for educational purposes. Please do not self-diagnose yourself. Based on what I’ve just said, I recommend speaking to a mental health professional to get a comprehensive understanding of where you are at on the spectrum. Okay. Do not diagnose yourself, please.

All right, so that’s social anxiety in general. We are talking about it today in the context of groups of gay men. This is a very unique flavor that we are all aware of, and I think it’s important that we talk about it.

We get sometimes a little bit anxious and afraid. Specifically in groups of gay men, it’s a unique flavor. Some people feel totally fine and they’re okay in groups of straight people, no problem. Some people are fine when they’re at work in their professional setting, great. But all of a sudden, when it comes to groups of gay men, that’s when the social anxiety flares up. So that’s what we want to talk about today. And Matt Reno and I wanted to do this episode because connection is such an important pillar of what we’re doing with the gay men’s brotherhood and our community. We are really building a community here. Right. Um, so we see this anxiety as a very common block for a lot of guys. We see this all the time. Even in my own men’s groups with Wellismo, I’ve been doing this for years now. The standard pattern is people are so nervous to come in, they’re so nervous to join, they’re feeling. I don’t know about this. I’m very skeptical. I’m afraid they’re not sure. But for whatever reason, they take the chance. And I’m really happy and thankful that they do, because after those 6810 weeks, whatever the program is, they leave feeling so much more optimistic about interactions with gay people. They feel a lot more comfortable and confident sharing with others and listening with others. And of course, they feel more seen, heard, and understood. So there is a great reward for, um, starting to look at your social anxiety and finding ways to overcome it, which we’ll be talking about as well today. Yet so many people don’t even take that risk to join a men’s group, or even very commonly in our sharing circles in the Gay Men’s Brotherhood. A lot of y’all sitting on that sideline.

We’ve got, like, thousands of people in there, and it’s great that we’re seeing so many new people come in every month. Um, but, you know, a lot of people want that connection. This is what we hear all the time. I want connection on one hand, but on the other hand, my anxiety or fear is so strong, there’s. There’s some obstacle there that’s preventing me from engaging with other people. So it’s a really tough place to be.

So what is it about gay men? Why do we create anxiety being with each other? There are four common reasons that I hear, and I’ll share those now and then. We can talk specifically to our personal experiences and our. In our sharing. Okay, so number one reason I get all the time is gays are judgy, which in and of itself is a judgy statement. Just saying. But, yeah, let’s just go with it. Gays are judgy. Yes. There is a strong emphasis on appearances. And when you put yourself into these groups, you kind of know you’re opening yourself up to judgment, shady comments, and gossip. And so why would you want to do that? Of course, it’s like, no, no, no, I’m not going to sign up for that. Thank you very much.

Number two reason is that there’s this pressure. I hear the word pressure, there’s pressure. I feel pressured to conform. So a lot of people say, oh, I don’t know if I’m right for this group, or I don’t know if I’m right for this. I don’t know if I’m gay enough. What does that even mean? And there’s this pressure that, oh, okay, if I’m going to be in groups of gay men, I need to talk about things that I have no genuine interest in, or I need to talk in ways or with people that there’s really no connection there. So, like a pressure to conform almost, to talk about your hookups and talk about, you know, drag race and talk about things that maybe you think people are talking about as part of a stereotypical air quotes gay culture. But if that’s not naturally, you. You’re not going to want to participate. Okay, but again, that’s maybe an assumption you might be making.

Three that compare and despair that we talk so, so, so much about on this podcast, which is that underlying feeling that we’re being placed on an invisible social hierarchy based on attractiveness, status, age, race, everything. But there is that invisible hierarchy that exists. And this is not just true for the gay population. This exists in many populations as well, but we have a unique flavor of it.

So if you put yourself in that situation, again, it’s going to be very uncomfortable for you, thinking that, oh, you know, I’m not at the top of the hierarchy, or you’re comparing yourself to others. It’s not very comfortable. It can be very demoralizing.

This is a subject that we talked about a lot in the social authenticity and social media a few. A few episodes ago, where we talked about the instagays. And this is very relevant in social media, but also in actual groups of gay men. And then finally, reason number four, sexual tension.

Being in groups of gay men automatically introduces that prospect of romantic and sexual tension. You could be thinking, okay, I want to make platonic friends. And then you see a cute guy, and all of a sudden, your mind is switched on to, like, something else, which, obviously, we totally get. We’re trying to be friends with the very same people that we maybe want to have sex with or have a romantic connection with. So that adds a whole lot of confusion. And again, it’s not something that we need to contend with when we’re in groups of straight folks. Not an issue at all. But then all of a sudden, young groups of gay men, you maybe want to impress them, maybe you want to look good, you want to be seen as attractive. And again, it just creates an added pressure. Okay, so these are just four con reasons, and we’ll be talking more about this. So all of this makes sense, right? Like, as I add this all up, like, I’m feeling myself get anxious thinking about being in groups of gay men, because, like, oh, my God, that’s a lot. There’s a lot of mental noise to contend with. Right. Um, so that’s.

[00:11:07] Reno Johnston: That makes.

[00:11:07] Michael Diiorio: Makes sense if you’re listening to this and you’re like, oh, yeah, I definitely feel you know, social anxiety of gay men. I don’t blame you, my friend. I do too. And we just thought of four really good reasons why. So let’s take it to the personal level now. The first question we have today is what specific situations or what kinds of situations stir up social anxiety for you? And why do you think that is today? Let’s start with Matt.

[00:11:36] Matt Landsiedel: What kind of situations trigger social anxiety for me?

Well, I would say I felt the same thing as you when you were listing off all those things I could just feel. And I was, like, going back through moments and times in my life where I was highly socially anxious. Probably say, I’ve got to level three.

And I spent a lot of my time in that zone.

Yeah. And I’ll explain why. But first I’ll just kind of answer the question straight up. Like, large groups would be definitely one.

When there’s an energy or a possibility of rejection, I think would be a big one. The fear of rejection can become. I think the fear of rejection is the fuel to why I would be socially anxious or like, not belonging. You know what I mean? Like being outcasted or something like that.

And then not having control over. Over my level of stimulus, I think is a big one for me. Being a highly sensitive person and having sensory processing sensitivity. When I’m in large groups and I don’t have control over, let’s say, the level of volume of the music or the brightness of the lights or these things. And I can get thrown into overstimulation really easily.

That causes me social anxiety because when I’m overstimulated, it’s like my nervous system goes into overdrive and I feel like I can’t. Like sometimes I feel like I can’t breathe or I feel like I can’t control, you know, like, the volume of whatever, what’s going on inside my system. My nervous system just gets really loud.

So I think that, you know, and before even knowing I had sensory processing sensitivity, I didn’t know what was going on, right. So I was, like, always socially anxious. I was always kind of in this high energy state. And then I get the mirroring back from people of, like, this person is like, feel that energy of being hyper vigilant or whatever it might be. Like, I can almost feel that.

So that’s one side of it and then the other piece too. Well, and then add in being an empath into that as well. Like, when I walk into a room, I can feel what’s going on in that room. So it can feel, like, really intense for me.

But there’s also a piece here that I think is important that bleeds into social anxiety for me, which is trauma and unhealed trauma. And one of the trauma responses that I employed from a young age was hypervigilance. Growing up in a chaotic home, lots of stuff happening. I was having to constantly be outside of myself, monitoring my environment for the next thing that was going to create whatever stress or trauma or whatever it might be. So coming at life through that lens, it’s always monitoring outside myself. And when I’m in social situations, I have a tendency, it’s a lot better now, but I used to have a tendency to leave myself and go out into the outer world, so I would be right. So then there’s this sense of abandoning myself, which that part of me feels like anxious and scared and these sorts of things. So it’s like a very young part that has really had to, I guess, protect myself through that. But it’s actually been very maladaptive as I’ve gotten older. And I know that my environment is safe for the most part. Like, I don’t need to employ that. So I’ve been really working with my nervous system to try and heal this trauma response of hypervigilance. And it’s helping. It’s helping make me feel more calm so I can be more, because there’s, I think, being hyper vigilant and being an empath, they show up very similarly. Right. But when you have both of them employed, it’s like everything is so intense. It’s almost like I can feel people’s thoughts when I’m in a room, like, to that point. Right. And it’s like, so it becomes too intense for me. So I’ve really stayed away from a lot of social stuff.

And it’s ever since I stopped drinking, so I don’t really drink alcohol much anymore. If I do go into social situations that are highly, like, large groups of people, loud music, like, I almost need to be drinking because I won’t be able to be there and enjoy it. And I don’t really enjoy drinking, so I pretty much stay away from those types of situations. Um, yeah. And then just looking at, like, why do I think this is those, you know, feeling judged or embarrassing myself? Those are really two things that show up prominently for me. Like, worrying about, like, you know, I have this core belief that I’m different and that I think I talked about this in the last episode that we did. Like, I feel I feel different or that there’s something different about me. So, like, sometimes I’ll say things, and it, like, puts people off, or people, like, kind of look at me like, you know, so. And I’m very attuned to people’s reactions to me, right. Which that’s part of the hypervigilance. So I’m trying to pull that back and just really be in my own energy, not care what people think, not care if people have reactions to me that are. That are negative or positive or whatever, just kind of stay in my own energy.

So that’s. That’s a big piece. And then, I don’t know, when you were talking, I was, like, going back into, like, my childhood and, like, knowing that I was gay and hiding that from everybody. Nobody knew I was gay from the age of. I had my first thought of being gay at five, and I came out at 18. So that’s 13 years of harboring this really large part of who I am. So it was this energy of concealing. I was concealing myself.

And I think that really played into, like, probably a development of low self-esteem, when you think about it. Because how we develop self-esteem is we are authentic, and we get our authentic needs met, and we’re connecting to people through our authentic self, and people validate our authentic self, and we feel good about ourselves. But if we’re hiding our authentic self, we don’t actually get validated or assured or anything in our authentic self. So I think, for me, I have and still am struggling with low self-esteem in certain areas. And I think that plays into social anxiety in a tremendous way. I think that actually is, like, I think that fuels social anxiety. Like, there’s people that are shy or introverted, for sure. But I also think sometimes fear creates introversion and shyness, and the fear can be a byproduct of social anxiety.

So, yeah, I think that’s. I’ll leave it there. I think that pretty much answers. Answers it for me.

[00:18:05] Michael Diiorio: Yeah.

[00:18:05] Matt Landsiedel: What about for you, Reno?

[00:18:07] Reno Johnston: I love when you use this word conceal, because I think that’s a big one. It made me think of, funny enough, it made me think of when I. When I had first come out, and I was just, like, exploring. And this is all me, by the way. Like, the skin is all me right now. But back in the day, I remember dabbling in beauty products, and I remember, like, I bought this liquid concealer, um, and I would wear it, and it was an interesting experience. I I. But I remember the point at which I was like, this is. It feels heavy. It feels heavy. Um, I like my skin. I like the way it looks without all of this. And I just kind of stripped it all back. But I. I feel like it was an important part of my experience.

Yeah, I feel like I’m kind of a weird case because I don’t know, I’m a very social creature. So when it comes to social anxiety, like, yes, I experience it when I’m entering into spaces. And it’s a. Usually, I don’t know, when there’s a lot of thought going on, when there’s a lot of preconceived notions going on, when, I don’t know, when there’s shame or guilt present. These are some of the things I thought of when maybe there’s an attachment to a desired experience or outcome. You know, these are situations where I think I would experience some social anxiety, but I thrive in social environments, and I feel like I always have.

Certainly, it’s required courage to enter into spaces, but I remember when I entered into, you know, let’s say, like the gay world, so to speak. Right? Like the nightclub, my first pride experience, like, I, like, walked into the club, like I owned the place.

And then my first experience with pride, like, yes, I was anxious. They put me in a yellow, like, speedo and a matching tank top on a float, right? And like, I was in my glory. I loved it. I was like, this is wonderful.

And imagine me walking through, like, the legislative building in Winnipeg, Manitoba, in this outfit and walking down those big steps to get onto a float. And everyone’s kind of there watching. It was quite interesting. But audacity, I don’t know. I’m not sure what it is. And I’m not saying that I don’t. I don’t experience, you know, like, let’s say big thought and big feeling when I’m entering into a social situation. It does happen. It just feels a bit, like, distant for me somehow. I don’t. I don’t know how to explain it. But I will say, funny enough, that when we were recording, when we just had just started recording, and I knew that I was going to have to answer this question, I was feeling some anxiousness, because I’m like, I know I have answers, but I was like, what am I going to say?

So, yeah, there’s another piece, too. When I think or feel like I have something to hideous or mask or prove, I can certainly experience a lot of. A lot of anxiousness in these spaces. And we’ll probably get into this in the second question.

But I’ve learned how to regulate leading up to and entering into these situations. And that has kind of made it easier for me to honor the experience I’m having and move in those spaces with grace, I guess so. It’s a weird question. Like, I’m not. I don’t know if I have any more to say in response to it because social anxiety feels a bit distant for me, maybe. Yeah.

[00:22:50] Michael Diiorio: I was super curious to know how you’re going to answer that one, knowing what I know about you. I was like, right. Know what Reno has to say about this.

[00:22:57] Reno Johnston: Yeah, it’s weird. Yeah, it’s weird. I don’t know. And, I mean, I. I’d be happy for someone to, like, challenge me on that or something like that, because maybe there’s something I’m. I’m not seeing. It just feels distant for me, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:23:11] Matt Landsiedel: I don’t think it. Yeah, it feels authentic to me because I know you and I’ve been out with you, and I think you. You would board score probably higher on extroversion, I would say. Right. And, like, you’re more comfortable with being visible. Like, that’s probably part of, like, you maybe have the performer archetype.

[00:23:26] Reno Johnston: Yeah.

[00:23:26] Matt Landsiedel: Which is, like, you like to be seen and be in the spotlight. Like, I think that’s more. Yeah, see, I see that in you. Yeah.

[00:23:33] Reno Johnston: And I guess it would be important for me to say as well, like, don’t get me wrong. Like, probably every room I walk into, there’s, like, some sensation of, like, thought feeling anxiousness, if you will. Right. There’s, like, some degree of it, for sure.

I just learned to hold it and navigate it, I think. So it doesn’t feel so big and so heavy for me, but certainly back in the day it did, especially when I was in the closet, as we say, that’s a whole other story.

Moving in straight spaces was quite anxiety inducing for me at that time. Yeah.

And the only concern I had moving in gay spaces back then would have been that, like, how do I say this? Like, them being gay without me or they would out me. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:50] Michael Diiorio: Very, very interesting. I think there’s a lot of people out there who feel more comfortable in straight spaces, and then there’s a lot of people out there who feel more comfortable in straight spaces and they feel uncomfortable in straight spaces. So it’s very interesting how that is. I personally feel more comfortable in gay spaces now, but that was certainly not always the case. And I feel less comfortable because all that hyper vigilance shows up from being in the closet in straight spaces.

[00:25:14] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, that’s fascinating because I’m the opposite. So when I was younger, I had a lot of social anxiety around straight men, and I healed that, and now I’m very comfortable with straight men. More comfortable with straight men than gay men. But when I was younger, I would go to gay bars, and I was a scenester, right, in my twenties, and I was super comfortable with, all my friends were gay, everything like that. And then fast forward. Now I feel like I’m more comfortable with straight people and less comfortable with gay people.

[00:25:45] Michael Diiorio: So, yeah, yeah, it’s interesting how we’re all a little bit different.

Reno, your, your example of the being in your yellow speedo in front of, like, all those people is my nightmare. I would, like, I would shrink away and, like, no, absolutely not. I’d rather crawl into a hole like, that sounds terrible.

[00:26:03] Reno Johnston: I’m shocked. I don’t know, because I guess because I just. Yeah, to me, you’re just like, you.

[00:26:09] Michael Diiorio: Would think people are often shocked by that. But I. It’s just, it’s the, it’s the eyeballs on me, which I can now answer. It’s a good segue to the answer to how I would answer this, but what kinds of situations serve social anxiety and why? And for me, it’s something like that, where there’s a lot of eyeballs on me, where I’m, like, the center of attention and, like, there’s a spotlight on me. So there’s a very specific scenario that I actively avoid. So, like, normally I’m in, like, the level one or level two, but for this specific scenario, I just flee. And that is drag shows.

[00:26:42] Matt Landsiedel: Hmm.

[00:26:43] Michael Diiorio: Because I know those drag queens are going to, like, pick somebody from the crowd. They’re going to, they’re going to put the spotlight on me. They’re going to put the mic in front of my face for someone, and the very possibility that that could be me. No, no, no, no. Get me out of there. So as soon as the drag queen comes on. See you later.

[00:27:00] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I’d be the same.

[00:27:02] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. I’m like, do not look at me. Do not pick on me. Do not ask me where I’m from. Don’t ask me if I’m single. Do not ask if I’m a top or bottom. Don’t ask me anything. Just get me out of here. Uh, so, yeah, that’s one that I vote. Although I love drag queens, I love the performances. I’m happy to watch them from afar or on tv. Nothing against them. I just don’t, I just don’t like being picked on. Same thing. If it’s like a stand-up comedy show, anything like that, where there’s, like, audience participation. Get me out of there.

[00:27:25] Matt Landsiedel: That’s funny. I’m still the same.

[00:27:28] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. Even actually at my birthday party. So I had my last year, I had my 40th, and I had a lot of people over, and everyone started singing happy birthday to me, obviously, as they do. And I was like, it was this moment that I should have been so full of love and happiness, and I was. But I was looking around at, like, 50 people singing to me, looking at me, and I was like, oh, my God, don’t look at me.

And that’s where it comes up. And even in these. Even in these, like, really nice situations. So it’s just eyeballs on me, really. Like, I get sweaty palms, my heart starts to beat. I shake a little bit, my voice trembles. Like, I just don’t like having eyeballs on me, oddly enough.

[00:28:07] Reno Johnston: Yeah.

[00:28:09] Michael Diiorio: Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about strategies to overcome. So what strategies have you found helpful in managing your social anxiety in these group situations, Matt?

[00:28:24] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, it’s just this feeling of letting go, like, just letting go and, like, surrendering. It’s like kind of diving off the cliff and just letting go. I think so many of us grew up with, like, well, I think there’s two aspects. There’s perceived and real threats. Like, as a gay person, there’s real threats, like, if we’re out and somebody sees us, or we could be called a fag or beaten up or whatever. So, like, there’s actually valid, like, because sometimes social anxiety is perceived. Like, it’s like we’re catastrophizing these things. But being a gay person, we’re at high risk of being, whatever, fill in the blank anything that could be threatening.

And I think that what that does is it creates this worry of self-monitoring.

So it’s maybe how we walk or how we talk or body gestures or mannerisms, these sorts of things. So that self-monitoring, I think, is what creates this real highly anxious, lots of inner dialogue going on. So for me, it’s like having to just surrender and let go. And I actually didn’t learn how to deal with my social anxiety until I stopped drinking alcohol, because every time I was out in social situations, I was always drinking. So there was never an opportunity for me to work with my social anxiety because I would basically just numb it out. So that was in my mid-twenties, I think. I stopped drinking, and I had long periods of sobriety, starting maybe in my mid-twenties. Um, I think I was sober for like, maybe four years in that timeframe. And, um, yeah, so I would practice going out with my friends, and I would be sober, and they would be drinking, and I would have to be around. So I have. I would be tuning into my needs. Like, what’s going on for me? Like, am I overstimulated? If I am Kate, I’m out. Like, I’m leaving. And usually, I would have this, like, timeframe of, like, midnight. Midnight was that cutoff point where. Where people would start getting handsy and saying inappropriate things because they were drinking. So then that would be my time to go. Right. So I just. There was, like, this tuning in. This tuning in and being really mindful of that, but then also this surrender and just, like, let go of worry and. You know what I mean? Like, just, like, there’s also this piece that it’s, like, there’s a chance that, yeah, I might be embarrassed. So, you know, like, yes, there’s a chance I might be judged. Okay. Right. Like, there’s this acceptance of. It’s, like, radical acceptance of. Yes, there’s a possibility that these things might happen, but you can overcome it. Right. And. And you can face it. And I find for me, there’s, like, having a wingman is really. It helps with my social anxiety, because I like having that person. It’s, like, an anchor point that I can connect with. And, you know, they’re my dance buddy. They’re like, you know, like, just. There’s something about having, like, a wingman.

But I’ve also gone out to, like, clubs and things and events, like, by myself, and it’s anxiety provoking, for sure. Um, and I notice in those moments, my tape starts playing of, like, you’re a loner. You know, like, people are judging you. Like, you know, like that sort of thing. But then I also have my higher self, which chimes in and is like, you’re so courageous. You know how many people in this world would never go for to dinner by themselves or out to a wherever by themselves? Like, they always need somebody there. So, you know, if. If you’re either of those types of people, like, you always need a wingman or you always go out alone, like, try trying the. On the other hat, you know, and see what it’s like to. To play with both those things, because there’s so much growth that can happen in these situations and.

Yeah. And then I just wrote a couple things down here that I think are important because, like, dealing with social anxiety, I think, is, like, it’s a psychological thing, right? Like, how we think and feel about ourselves really is the root of social anxiety. So if we can start to get to those, like, those roots and start looking at, like, you know, our inner critic and maybe the things that we’re putting our experiences through as far as filters, like our beliefs about ourself and about, you know, what it means to be in social situations.

So, like, just kind of, like three steps. So look at the thoughts you have in social situations, like, and just be mindful of them. Make note, like, okay, why am I thinking these things? Like, for example, mine being I’m out in social situations by myself and I start equating that to I’m a loner, right? Like, I’m a loser, like something. So just observing that and getting curious about these thoughts and then start to challenge the thoughts. And if they are fear-based thoughts about things happening, like, look at the likelihood of these happening. How many times have you gone out in social situations and the very thing you’re afraid of happening happens, right. For most people, it’s going to be very slim. So just looking at that, and then I would say, like, look for evidence of the opposite. So, like, if you think you’re a loser or you think you’re ugly or you think you’re whatever these. These things are, that you’re going to be rejected, look for evidence of when those things didn’t happen and the positive happened, right. So you went out and you had connection, and it felt really good because that’s usually what happens to me. Like, I’ll be highly anxious, and I will. My. I’ll use my imagination to, like, play out how the night I think is going to go, and that night is loaded with fear, right? And then when I do go, even if I’m not drinking, I have an amazing time, and I dance and I meet new people, and I’m like, I get home and I’m just so full, and I’m like, wow, that was amazing. Right? So, like, I. When I’m preparing to go out, I will think about that. I’ll be like, oh, like, remember that time I went out and I had these amazing connections? So the mind and the socially anxious mind looks for reasons of, like, I call it, like, what ifs of limitation or fear. And I think when we practice, like, what ifs of possibility and joy, it can really be. Be helpful in shifting some of that socially anxious energy.

[00:34:18] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, that resonates a lot with me. Everything you just said.

[00:34:23] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Well, from a fellow Gemini, like anybody, that’s an air sign. Like, we’re just so cerebrally dominant that it’s. It’s hard to get out of the head.

[00:34:30] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. And it’s so overwhelming when you’re in these spaces trying to, like, all the stimulus plus then all your own thoughts. It’s just a lot. So those are some really good tips. Thanks, man.

[00:34:38] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah, thanks.

[00:34:40] Reno Johnston: Mmm.

[00:34:40] Michael Diiorio: Reno.

[00:34:41] Reno Johnston: Yeah, so there’s. There’s, like, a couple pieces here.

One is, I’m noticing this desire to be, like, witnessed.

Like, there’s this part of me that wants to be seen right now, and it’s the part of me that still experiences anxiousness in social situations.

Yeah. Because it’s not that it doesn’t happen. I think it’s just how I navigate it. And so that’s like a great segue into my earlier years.

So I was quite anxious, actually. When I was younger, I navigated OCD.

And then in addition to that, I’m like this petite, bright, expressive, emotive, sensitive young black boy and gay.

And I’m sort of moving through the world in this identity, if you will. And I mentioned this on a previous episode we had recorded where, you know, there was this sense that I had actually come in, like, okay.

And then as a result of, you know, let’s say, like, maybe it was my first spanking, maybe it was my first shaming, maybe it was my first, you know, situation with a bully.

But whatever it was, little by little, it’s like that big little light started to dim.

And so then I was like, okay, how do I orient myself in this world so that I feel safe? Right? It became about. It became about externalized safety and security, whereas before, like, it. Like, it was about my. It was more about my inner experience. You know, like, that was prioritized, and there’s an innocence about that and, like, a.

An authenticity about that.

So what happened for me is that while I’m reacting and responding to the external environment and doing the things that would potentially have me fit in, like, my light won’t quit. So I’m still entering into situations. I’ll call itself exposure and self-disclosure. So I’m still entering into spaces and situations and, like, bringing forth that authenticity while simultaneously experiencing the kind of sweaty palm shaky, you know, choked up anxiety. And one of my earliest memories of that was when we had. I had.

We had an assembly, and there was an opportunity to perform something cultural. And so I’m of Trinidadian, Irish and English descent, and I decided to focus on my Trinidadian roots. And so I wore a dashiki and I brought in some cultural artifacts and I was going to perform a Trinidadian song in front of the elementary school, essentially, and something happened. The tape went missing. The audio track went missing. I have some theories about what happened there, but that’s a whole other story.

But the audio track went missing, and so I didn’t get to perform. And I remember crying because I really wanted to, even though I was terrified, right? I was so scared.

I have another instance of that. When I was in high school and we had the spirit week, and there was a talent show, and I put on the suit and got in front of the gym and sang this song by Casey and JoJo in front of the high school. I forget the name of the song, but again, like, terrified, right? But did it anyway.

And then dressed up as a woman, like, I had. There was. I had this, like, tight little dress on and this inflatable cow, and you had to, like, ride the cow around the gym. And I remember I was like, damn it. I wore briefs today, and I’ve got this little, like, dress, and this is in a small rural community, right? But I pushed it because, again, my light wouldn’t quit. So it’s like I was still scared every single time, you know? I can’t tell you how many times I’m afraid. I go to the club by myself constantly, and I’m like, same thing as you, Matt. Like, oh, people are going to think I’m a loner. I look like I have no friends. I’m, like, walking through the city by myself, doing things alone. People must think, what a loser. Like, where’s his friends? You know? He’s such a loner. It’s like, I actually like myself, and I like going out by myself, and I like meeting people, and I enjoy myself. And so, yeah, I think I just learned to lean into the discomfort and hold it and breathe through it and be with it. And I guess one of the last things I would say is I prioritize myself and my experience. I used to prioritize the external world. What will they think of me? What will they say? Who do I need to be for everybody else in order to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? And I noticed that happening over time. Now I’ve retreated inward. I’m like, okay, my experience, I’m with myself. I’m holding myself. I’m prioritizing my experience. I’m being with my breath. I’m noticing what’s coming up, and I’m really just holding myself in a way that, you know, previously maybe I needed from others. It was like, validate me, hold me honor me. I’m holding me now. I’m honoring me. I’m validating me. And so that I think for me, in addition to exposing myself to the things that scare me, has made a world of difference. And that’s my practice. Every day I do shit that scares me, you know? So, yeah.

[00:41:43] Michael Diiorio: Was the song all my life?

[00:41:45] Reno Johnston: That’s the one. That’s the one. That is the one. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes. If you’re watching, if you’re not watching, Michael’s fireworks just went off in Michael’s background.

[00:41:56] Michael Diiorio: That was fun. Thank you. Yeah, I love that. I love the self-compassion one. That’s definitely one that has helped as well. And we’ve done a lot of podcast episodes about self-compassion. And that reno is a really good, tangible example of a great time to practice it. It’s very real in that moment. Yeah, yeah.

[00:42:10] Reno Johnston: Thank you.

[00:42:10] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Thanks for revealing that part of yourself, too.

Yeah, it’s nice to meet that part of you.

[00:42:17] Michael Diiorio: Yeah.

[00:42:17] Reno Johnston: Thank you.

[00:42:18] Michael Diiorio: Okay, so what strategies have I found helpful in managing social anxiety and group situations? My favorite one that works for me is people don’t actually care about me that much.

That really helps me, because in my mind, I’m thinking everyone’s. It’s the opposite. It’s like everyone’s looking at me, thinking about me, talking about me, and really, truly, no one really cares. No one’s really looking at me. No one’s really talking about me. And if they are, it’s like, for a half second before they’re on to the next thing. And so I worry about me more than other. More than I think I do. And that one really helps me personally is people don’t actually care. It might not work for you. I’m just sharing what works for me. Please take it if it works and leave it if it doesn’t. Another one is. It’s okay if people don’t like me. It’s okay if people think I’m boring. It’s okay if people think I’m weird. It’s okay if I say something stupid. I am loved regardless, and I am no less lovable because of someone else’s opinion. So that is kind of my version of, like, a self. Self-compassionate talk or having my own back, as they call it, being my own BFF.

It’s okay. It’s okay if that happens. I don’t need to be perfect for anybody. Another one is checking in. If it’s at a big event, if I’m in a big group space, like a nightclub or a party, or anything like that. A house party where there’s lots of people I will check in with trusted friends. So, Matt, you had talked about a wingman. This totally works for me. Um, so oftentimes my, my besties know this. I’ll be like, I’m going to the bathroom. You’re coming with me.

And, um, we just kind of do a little check in. How’s it going? We do, you know, we do a little spilling the tea. What’s going on? What’s happening? What’s, what’s going on outside? And then we check in with each other. Like, how are we feeling? Are we enjoying this? Are we not enjoying this? What’s the vibe? What’s going on? Um, and if it’s something indoors, I love to get outside because I just need to be outside sometimes. Just being outside and breathing in some fresh air, like doing that just really calms me down.

Yeah. And then a good thing with the wingman option is tell them ahead of time. Like, I’m feeling a bit nervous about this party or someone’s going to be there that I’m not quite sure. Like, whatever it is, whatever your reason is, tell your friends ahead of time, someone that you trust, tell them ahead of time and be like, great. If you can check in with me, if its someone that you trust and love, they will, and they’ll just look out for you. And that’s a good thing. Um, and then, yeah, exhaling was another one. So, yeah, when I’m feeling it in my body, like I said, a big exhale is a really quick, easy way for me to just feel a little bit better. Um, and that self-compassion, so I don’t need to repeat it again, Reno talked a lot about that. That’s a really good way to practice it. And then finally I would say, one that I remind myself of is like, if I don’t want to be in a big group, don’t be in a big group. Stick to the small groups, find the people I like, stick with them. It’s fine. I do not need to force myself to, like, perform in front of this big group. It’s okay if I’m not that guy and I don’t feel like it. There’s nothing wrong with that. No one’s gonna make me, there’s nothing wrong with me. I just don’t force it. So if I don’t feel like it, then I just don’t do it. And I just let myself love myself off the hook and relieve myself of my own expectations. At the end of the day, that’s what it’s about.

Yeah, those are some of mine. All right, guys, well, this has been helpful and lovely and I hope that the guys who are listening to this and watching this at home do join us in our sharing circles and connection circles. And my, my Welly’s most shamelessly gay groups and Matt’s empowerment groups and authentic relating groups and Reno’s groups and everything. Please go and attend things and meet up with guys and groups of gay guys. Wherever you are, whatever you’re doing. It is one of those things that I think a lot of us, we talk about this a lot on this podcast. We’re really, really strong with the fact that there’s a lot of us who feel isolated and lonely and don’t belong and we really are here to try to fix that. Matt, Reno and I, and the game is brotherhood in this podcast. So we know that social anxiety can be a big obstacle. We hope that today has helped you. Do you guys have anything you want to add before I wrap this up?

[00:46:05] Reno Johnston: Just two things. One, I want to echo what you said, which is, you know, we have this like big, beautiful community here and we have multiple opportunities to connect and expose yourself to the things that make you uncomfortable in a safe, facilitated, supportive space. So I would just say I can’t think of a better place to start than right there. And if it’s super edgy for you, luckily, you’re behind a computer screen so you can start there and then come to the meetups in person. If that feels like, you know, like just edgy enough for you, it’s like, give that a try. But, yeah, my second piece would be that is the self-exposure piece and the self-disclosure piece. And, you know, I think what I’ve seen work time and time again is to, you know, honor, honor your experience. Like disclose your experience first to yourself.

Right. And then maybe to somebody trusted and then, and then to expose yourself to, you know, the things that scare you. Right. Yeah, come into these spaces and maybe just take the first step. Like the first little step. You don’t have to take a bold, daring leap unless you want to, but the first step, you know.

[00:47:35] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, love that. Thank you. And for. Yeah, go ahead, Matt.

[00:47:38] Matt Landsiedel: I. I think you’re going to say it. Go ahead and I’ll see if it’s not the thing that I was going to say.

[00:47:42] Michael Diiorio: I was just going to share with the audience what we’re talking about when we say sharing circle and connection circle and giving them a little bit of just tell.

[00:47:48] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, sure, do that. And then I’ll say my piece after.

[00:47:51] Michael Diiorio: Okay. Yeah. So for those of you who don’t know what we’re talking about, our sharing circles are monthly. We talked about this in bidding. But just so you know, it’s a free event. Last Thursday of the month, you come in, Matt and Ellery hosts one in the evening. Reno and I host one in the earlier time slot. You come in, we put you in two breakout rooms. Reno facilitates one, I do the other, and we just share and we have questions for you guys to answer. And it’s where you get to be in a group of other gay men virtually via Zoom. And we just share for, it’s just an hour there. Our connection circles, if that scares you a bit too much, then come to the connection circle. That’s on the second Thursday of the month. And in that one, we are there as well. And we put you in little pods of three, just like we do here. And you guys go into a breakout room. And again, we give you questions to answer. And you have about an hour, almost just the three of you, to unpack that question and talk about it and connect with each other in a more casual, conversational kind of way. So it’s two wonderful opportunities per month you guys have through the game and brotherhood, just letting you know what that is. And we will all be there. So come join us.

[00:48:51] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah. And then lastly, our local meetup groups. So go into the event section in the Facebook group and you will see we’re going to be having ambassadors that are going to be hosting different events across the world. Really. And if you’re interested in also hosting something in your city, let us know. Email [email protected] and we’ll send you the Google form and you can fill it out and apply to become an ambassador in your city for the gay men’s brotherhood and host your own local meetup group.

[00:49:23] Michael Diiorio: Yes, please do that. And I’ll put all that information in our show notes. Thanks for reminding me, Matt.

[00:49:28] Matt Landsiedel: Perfect.

[00:49:29] Michael Diiorio: All right, guys. Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Reno, for another wonderful episode for our audience for listening. Thank you for sticking with us. And if you’re listening to us on YouTube, listening to us on a podcast, again, please give us those five stars and a rating and a review, again helps us to get into the ears of people who might feel this way and just need a little bit of support and encouragement like we provided here today. And if you’re watching us on YouTube, please go ahead and share in the comments how you experience your own social anxiety, some strategies that have helped you go ahead and answer the questions that we answered here. It’s great because our comment section on YouTube is really turning into a little bit of a peer support community on its own. So we love seeing that. All right, guys, thank you so much, and we’ll see you next week. Bye.