Navigating Depression

[00:00:00] Matt Landsiedel: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men’s Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Landsiedel. And joining me today is Reno Johnston. And today we are talking about ‘Navigating Depression’, finding a way through the dark times, and we’re going to be exploring questions like what is depression? What is your relationship to depression? How have you dealt with your depression? And what advice do you have for someone who is dealing with depression? So it’s going to be a bit of a heavier episode today. We’re going to be kind of unpacking a topic that isn’t often talked about. It’s kind of like our episode on suicide. Depression is often one of those things that people avoid talking about, which is why we’re talking about it today. It’s important to bring voice to a more heavier topic because a lot of us do struggle with depression. And what we want you to get out of today’s episode as the listener viewer is to know that you’re not alone. You are not alone if you are somebody that struggles with depression. And we want to bring voice to maybe what you’re experiencing and hopefully share some tips and strategies that have helped us and that ways that you can support yourself, receive support from people, but also support yourself. So that’s our hope for today’s episode. If you’re new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe. Leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. So just off the top, I’m going to say, like, this isn’t a clinical overview. I’m not a psychiatrist. I’m not going to be giving a breakdown of what depression is, all of the diagnostics, that sort of stuff. I’m going to give you kind of a loose definition of depression and I’ll direct you in a direction if you want more information about the diagnostics and more of the clinical side of depression. But what is depression? I use the World Health Organization as a reference. So everything that I’m going to be sharing with you guys today comes from the World Health Organization.

Depressive disorder, also known as depression, is a common mental disorder. It involves a depressed mood or loss of pleasure, of interest in activities for long periods of time. Some of the symptoms and patterns of depression. A person might experience depressed mood, so that might look like feeling sad, irritable or empty. They may feel a loss of pleasure or interest in activities. It is different from regular mood fluctuations. They may last most every day, nearly every day, or for at least two weeks. So that kind of gives a breakdown. Some of the symptoms are going to look like poor concentration, feelings of excessive guilt or low self-worth, hopelessness about the future, thoughts about dying or suicide, disrupted sleep, changes in appetite or weight, and feeling very tired or low energy. Some facts from the World Health Organization. Depression is a common mental disorder. Globally, an estimated 5% of adults suffer from depression. More women are affected by depression than men. And I have a feeling it’s because more women are more likely to seek help. That’s my prediction about that. And depression can lead to suicide. And there is an effective treatment for mild, moderate and even severe depression. And again, if you want to find out more, like there’s, I believe, seven clinical types of depression. So you can look at the DSM five. So if you can even just Google types of depression, DSM five and you’ll get the breakdown. Things like major depressive disorder, persistent depressive disorder, dysthymia, bereavement, these sorts of things, it’ll give you kind of a key understanding. In my training as a counselor, I learned about looking at depression through the biopsychosocial, social, spiritual model. So the biology of depression could look like genetics. So having a biological predisposition to depression, it runs in the family, it’s an inherited trait. That’s one way of looking at depression. The psychology of depression could look like you could have nature and nurture. Right? Our psychology can be affected by our genetics, but it can also be affected by our environment. So it’s how we are relating to ourselves that’s going to be a big indicator. So somebody with low self-esteem, low self-worth, maybe shame, toxic shame, trauma. The psychology is really going to be impacting how we feel about ourselves, which could lead to depression. The social piece, one example could be how are you spending your time? Who are you engaging with? Are you drinking alcohol and doing drugs and partying? And is that the cause of depression for you? Right. And then the last one, spiritual being, do you have purpose and meaning in your life or is your life feeling empty? A lot of people that go through spiritual awakenings describe at points in their awakening depressive symptoms. So it’s hard to just lump this into one thing. There’s, it’s a very, you know, anybody that’s going to be treating depression, I think treating it from a holistic perspective is always going to be the best perspective when treating it. There’s a lot of tools in the toolbox to treat depression. And hopefully today’s episode will provide some hope to people who might be struggling and you might be listening and you might be thinking like, you know, well, I feel sad sometimes. Like, is that depression? And again, I’m not diagnosing people, but I would say sadness and depression are different in the sense that depression is going to have a higher intensity, frequency and duration. So it’s going to be looking at it as more of a chronic condition as opposed to acute. So if something happens in our lives and we feel sad about it, that’s like an acute sadness. If that persists over time, it can turn into depression. But if you’re having periods of sadness that resume back to happiness and it’s a normal fluctuation, I would say you understand what it’s like to maybe have depression in the sense that you can feel the sadness, the heaviness, but just imagine having that over long periods of time and how heavy that can be and how much of a burden it can feel, like carrying that around. So yes, we all feel sad, but we don’t all necessarily feel depressed. And then one last thing, because I do a lot of psycho spiritual work, I would say I play in both. I play with psychology, but I also play with spirituality. And I think you’re going to appreciate this, Reno, because I know you dabble in the same, same space. Just a couple weeks ago, I got introduced to Jeff Foster. I’m not sure if you know Jeff. I didn’t know anything about him. So I was listening to a reel from Jim Carrey and he was talking about Jeff Foster and how he describes depression as like depressed as needing deep rest. People who are depressed need deep rest. And so I’m just going to read the quote. I found it online and it’s basically the term depressed is often associated with Jeff Foster, who speaks about it as a play on the word depressed. According to Foster, when we feel depressed, it’s actually our body’s way of signaling that it needs deep rest from the roles, identities and expectations we carry in life. He suggests that depression can be an invitation to rest deeply into the present moment, to let go of the mental struggles, and to reconnect with our true essence. Jim Carrey has also touched on similar ideas, especially when he discusses shedding the ego and finding peace beyond the identity, we create for ourselves. He once referred to Jeff Foster’s teachings when talking about deep rest as a deeper form of healing. When we let go of the heavy burden of trying to be someone or something we authentically aren’t. The idea is that deep rest allows for a profound letting go and acceptance of what is, rather than a continuous fight against how we feel or what we think we should be. I literally just got chills reading that. It spoke to me in such a huge way. You know, just even looking at gay men, we walk around with masks, a lot of our lives, and we’re holding up these Personas, whether that’s masculinity or success or these sorts of things. Nothing. Feeling inadequate, and that’s heavy. It’s a heavy burden to carry. Like, I can feel the weight on my shoulders. So depression can be our time to incubate, to rest, and to kind of grieve and shed and let go of old identities and things that aren’t serving us anymore. I’m curious. I preamble a lot. So, like, what stimulated for you, Reno? Like, what’s. What’s alive in you?

[00:07:57] Reno Johnston: Everything. I remember when we had the conversation around this episode leading up to it, and just to be transparent with everyone, I had a sense that I’d experienced depression before. And I had. Those words had even left my mouth in the past a few times throughout my life, but I was never. And this is a common experience for me where I’m experiencing something. And because I haven’t necessarily been diagnosed, there’s a sense that I’m experiencing it. But I sort of brush it off where I’m like, maybe I’m just sad, or maybe this is just like a plateau period or something. And what I started to notice was that as I went digging, whether it was to learn about ADHD, whether it was to learn about obsessive compulsive disorder, and then, of course, depression. And that was probably one of the first things I went searching for years and years ago. As I started reading some of the symptoms of and the diagnoses, very quickly, I started to see, oh, maybe these things are affecting me. When I was looking up depression again, because it had been a while since I’d researched it prior to this episode, I started reading the list, and I thought, oh, gosh, it’s very obvious, given this list, that I have experienced depression on more than one occasion. What I loved about what you shared about Jeff Foster’s concept of deep rest is, a, that the universe leaves little clues, which I just think is so beautiful, and b, that, I don’t know, something inside of me kind of intuitively understood before I understood depression, that for me, it was a sign I was potentially not feeling something, not expressing something and probably carrying a heavy load. And so hearing that quote and hearing that concept of deep rest was definitely affirming, because when. When I was navigating those experiences, a lot of it was. And maybe those listening get this. Like, you’re kind of just feeling your way through it. Like, it can be really dark and really unclear, really cloudy, and sometimes there’s, like, no end in sight, and you’re just kind of taking it moment by moment. Right. I just remember kind of feeling my way through it. Like, I don’t know what’s going on here other than exactly what’s going on. I couldn’t really conceptualize it. And so it was just there, and I was just feeling my way through it. And an aspect of that was rest. An aspect of that was honestly feeling the sense that I was forced to kind of let go of all the stuff. Like, I didn’t really have a choice. It’s like, when you’re in that space, it’s so hard to get up and engage in our usual sort of routines and rituals and day to day drudgery. And at some point, you’re just like, no.

At some point, it’s just like, I can’t. I physically cannot. And so deep rest begins. Yeah.

[00:11:05] Matt Landsiedel: I’m hearing from you that one of those things that was showing up for you was just this low energy fatigue and not being able to kind of keep up with things that were happening in your world. And that was a sign for you that you were struggling with some depression.

[00:11:18] Reno Johnston: Yeah. Life in my body literally said, put it down. Put it all down, pause on all of it. And of course, my mind goes into a frenzy. There’s bills to pay and relationships to honor and things to be done and a house to be tidied and food to be made. And there are so many things. And sometimes I’d be able to get through a couple of those things. And some days it was just like, my best is like, I woke up this morning, you know, maybe I just hung out in the bed and did something that was slightly pleasurable, if not just calming, regulating, nurturing.

[00:12:01] Matt Landsiedel: I remember being depressed as a child, and I probably started dissociating when I was, I don’t know, maybe ten, something like that. Which, for those of you don’t know, like, dissociation is basically like leaving your body and just becoming very cerebral, not feeling your emotions, intellectualizing those sorts of things. So you have a strong relationship with your mind, but you kind of sever the relationship with your body, which is where we feel the heaviness of depression and sadness. So I didn’t really realize that I had depression most of my life because I was frozen. Dissociation puts us into a freeze state. It’s a trauma response of freezing. And when we’re in this free state, we’re kind of numb. We don’t really feel. And it’s just like, you’re not up, you’re not down. And if you stay at that place for so long of just being kind of neutral, it just becomes your life. You don’t realize that you have dips or. Or these sorts of things. And I think that was what was going on. And, you know, in the last few years, I’ve really done a lot of deep work to somatically reconnect myself, and I met my depression in a really big way. I’ve been fighting depression now for the last two years. Like, really bad. Like, I had to get medicated, and it’s been tough and having lots of suicide subtlety, which nothing I would. I would act on. It almost feels like a fantasy. Things feel so heavy and so burdensome that it’s like, that’s an option if I need it. Right. And just fantasizing about it being an option is enough for me, you know, at that point. Yeah.

And I realized that, like, for me, I was burnt the fuck out. Just burnt out. I was carrying so much. I’ve got bad neck issues. Have had neck issues most of my life. And if you think about carrying a lot of weight of the world on your shoulders, even as a kid, I was carrying a lot of weight. And the neck gets compressed, the spine gets compressed, and I’ve had spinal issues. It’s very much an energetic, like, a spiritual way of looking at my depression is like, I’ve been carrying way too much. And when I heard this quote from Jeff Foster, that’s what my nervous system did. It just went, oh, my gosh, this all makes sense. I was being submitted into a depression for a reason, because the universe was saying, dude, you can’t go on like this anymore. You are running on fumes. You have been for probably a greater part of a decade. So I’ve needed the last two years. It’s almost going on two and a half years now that I’ve been feeling like this. I’ve needed that time. My nervous system has been resetting itself. I’ve been learning how to nap. I’ve been learning how to feel my emotions, which if you would have asked me, like, five years ago, do you feel your emotions? I would have been like, oh, I’m a pro. I’m so emotionally intelligent. But no, I was bypassing, I was intellectualizing. I was doing all the things where I was so controlled with my emotions that I thought I was actually controlled in my emotions, but I wasn’t. I thought I was actually just repressing and dissociating and using trauma responses to deal with my emotions, which was very humbling for me to have this realization.

[00:14:57] Reno Johnston: I have a question, maybe a couple, even in hindsight. So what I’m curious about is, do you remember the moment that you recognized that you were experiencing depression? And from where you are now, kind of looking back, could you feel it or see it coming? Or like now, can you sort of notice like, oh, it would have started creeping in here and then it was very sort of clear that that’s what was happening here.

[00:15:23] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Or I started to get, and this was when I was living in Vancouver. Right. That’s when it started. But it wasn’t really depression at that point. My nervous system was chaotic. Once that settled, it was almost like the dust got kicked up. And then when that settled, I started to recognize zero libido, I had zero sex drive, I was having a hard time being still. And then when I would be still, I would be so tired. And I think I kept going because I was afraid that if I got too still, I would not get back up. That’s what I felt like. And I’m like, I’ve got a lot of responsibility on my plate. I’m leading two communities. I’ve got this podcast that I got to show up for. I’ve got clients I have to show up for and all these things. So I wouldn’t let myself slow down because I felt like I needed to keep going. So those were all signs for me. I took two weeks holidays and then I couldn’t get back going. I would go into rest mode and then I like, would be almost like incapacitated trying to come back to work because I was like, my body just needed major rest. So I’ve taken like two six week leaves in the last year to reset my nervous system. And I feel like I could take a year sabbatical, truly, and just like let everything reset and resettle and. But at this point right now in my life, that’s not possible.

[00:16:37] Reno Johnston: Yeah. I want to ask you another question.

So you have built co created communities, a business, and this life centered around community, and it requires, I would say, probably a significant amount of attention and nurturing, etcetera, right. And work. Yeah, I’m wondering, I guess, where do you think building that came from? And I guess I’m asking this question because it’s almost like, in a sense, you’ve maybe been backed into this corner in a way where there’s this heavy responsibility, and then you experience this sort of depression, and there maybe isn’t a lot of room to breathe and take that space. Right? And so I’m just so curious. The question isn’t totally clear, but I’m sort of talking and feeling my way through it. It’s like, I think about people who find themselves in this situation. Like, let’s say they go out into the world and they achieve and they build businesses and they do big things. And essentially, it’s almost like they sort of load it on. Like they load it on heavy, right? And thick, and then at some point, they buckle, right? And I just have this curiosity about how we get there and what drives us to that place where inevitably we buckle, break, and find ourselves in depression. You know, do we do it consciously? Do we not? Is it something that we just discover? So I’m curious how that question lands with you and what comes up for you.

[00:18:12] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, great question. And it was funny how, as you were articulating it, I was, like, getting closer and closer to my answer. It was like we were kind of hitting the station at the same time. So my parents split when I was about nine, and my mom, like, sat me down, my dad left. Mom sits me down and says, you’re now the man of the household. She’s like, you’re my main man. So that was, like, the first sign of, like, okay, I got to put myself aside and I got to take care of my mom and my sister, and I kind of wore that cape of like, okay, this is now my role. And I have a very strong sense of service and contribution and, like, duty. And some of, I would say 75% of it is ultra-altruistic and healthy. 25% of it is codependent and shadowy. And it’s around, like, I’m only valuable when I’m providing for somebody, right? Because that’s what I learned in my childhood. I was very codependent with my mother, so that’s a big piece of it for me. And then throw in gay shame, gay inadequacy, and it’s like, you have to be the best of the best. You have to have significance. So it’s over compensation. And I think those are the two things that were driving me to be overachieving, to be constantly busy taking on things. And I was a yes, man, most of my career, it’s like, oh, yeah, you need, you need to get in to see me in my schedule. Sure. And I would see seven clients a day, which is like crazy. As a therapist, that’s way too many clients to be seeing in a day, in my opinion. So I think that’s probably how I would answer it for myself. What about in your case?

[00:19:44] Reno Johnston: Yeah. And also, thank you so much for sharing all of that. Obviously, I found a way to articulate the question correctly because your answer, it makes so much sense, and I’m guessing that a lot of people can relate to that. You and I, there are so many parallels between us. I was listening to you speak and I was like, yep, yep, yep. You know, I was the oldest of four and I remember, you know, there was this feeling that I was kind of the man of the house. And then that became even more clear and explicit when my parents separated. When I was, I think I was about ten years old. And then we moved to a small, rural town. It was pretty full on, I’m going to say, like, this feeling of responsibility, this feeling of needing to be my mom’s sort of emotional partner, being really mindful and careful of what I did and didn’t express because I didn’t want her to break. And then feeling like I was responsible to protect and mind the well-being of my siblings and then going to school and sort of putting on a brave, fresh face and just trying to do that whole thing. Right. Add to that being a closeted gay queer person in a black body in an all-white town. Right. Like, it’s just, it’s a whole recipe. Right. And so you take all of that and then extend it out into adulthood and. Yeah, like, there’s performance, there’s feelings of being responsible for people. There’s this sense of carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders and needing to be a good boy and a good man and of service and all of this stuff, you know, and eventually it just gets heavy. I think the difference for me was that at some point I just kind of said, no, I’m not going to do this. I’m going to follow what makes sense to me. And so luckily, I didn’t create so much heaviness or responsibility. I guess, like, in some ways, I would say I attempted to avoid a lot of that. I was like, I don’t want to get caught up. And what happened was I saw how heavy it was for so many other people. Like, literally just watching my grandmother or my father or my mother or like, the adults around me really struggle and carry so much weight. And I thought I would really prefer to live lightly and to live joyfully. And so I just started kind of following that, I guess. So. Luckily, I wasn’t necessarily backed into a corner, but there were definitely moments where it was hard to kind of let go of what I had kept up. And as I said earlier, my life and my body were like, you don’t have a choice. And that could be anything from me wanting to keep up the body and then my low back giving out or my, you know, something happening to my knees or me getting sick or whatever it was. But my life and my body always, you talked about tension in the neck, same thing. In the shoulders, same thing. It was like my body in my life will always tell me at some point, like, nuh uh, this isn’t working. And it is a really scary thing at times when I would meet that point because, yeah, as I said, things to do, it’s like, oh, well, if I don’t keep pushing, my body isn’t going to look a particular way or people aren’t going to like me or people aren’t going to love me or I’m not going to be able to pay the bills or I, you know, I’m not going to be able to keep up all of this stuff. Right. And it can be a really scary thing to confront that and to begin to let it all go and to begin to reimagine and allow a new life to take shape. Yeah. A new life and a new way of being in the world to take shape. Yeah. It’s difficult.

[00:23:46] Matt Landsiedel: Something I appreciate about you, and I always have, and I’ve noticed this about you, is you’re, you’re more in your flow.

[00:23:51] Reno Johnston: Mm hmm.

[00:23:52] Matt Landsiedel: And you’re really connected to your body. I think that’s tremendous because I think if you look at again, like I said, people that dissociate or in freeze, they’re not connected to their body. And the body is our compass. It’s always guiding us, whether that’s emotionally or sensorily, we’re always being guided by the body. So having a relationship with your body and then, like, I get a sense that you, like, now know your capacities and you, like, really honor that and you don’t take on too much.

[00:24:19] Reno Johnston: Yeah, that’s really accurate. And I think it’s come with time and experience. And to be honest, I think it’s in recovery, they talk about rigorous honesty and they’re the twelve steps. And I really love those twelve steps because to me, they point in the direction of spiritual awakening. And they point in the direction of a sort of enlightenment. Right? One of the things that the recovery and the twelve steps talk about is this concept of rigorous honesty. And even the idea of that can sometimes be chilling for a person who’s been in the practice of inauthenticity or dishonesty. And I don’t say that in a judgmental way. It’s like sometimes we don’t even know that we’re operating from inauthenticity or dishonesty. It can be so subtle. And I think that what has happened for me is that over time and it’s become more and more difficult for me to do anything but honor my body and surrender to that flow because I’ve just seen what happens when I don’t. The neck tension, the shoulder tension, the low back gives out. Things start going to shit. I can’t get out of bed. Right. I’ll actually speak to a particular example of the first time I ever very clearly recognized that I was experiencing depression. I had gone to Bali and I was there for a twelve-day retreat. What was remarkable about that experience was, a, what it took for me to get there and then b, the alignment, the bliss, the pleasure, the connection, the. It was like if I could take a snapshot of my perfect and ideal life, it would have been that in a lot of ways. Not in every way, but in a lot of ways. If you can imagine, it’s like yoga and meditation every day and workshops and healthy food. And we’re in this, like, exotic location and, you know, there’s connection and it was just remarkable. And I remember having that experience and then coming back to Manitoba and I was really confused because I had never experienced anything like that before. And what I started to notice is if you can imagine like a flower or a plant gradually kind of wilting because it hasn’t been sunned and watered, I started to become like that. The light just got dimmer and dimmer and dimmer and I could feel it on my body. I was thirsty for something and I didn’t know what specifically, but it kept coming back to like, wanting to go back to Bali. I remember for about six months I was not myself. I was actually at one point let go from my job. And they were very graceful about it, but they just said, you’re not here anymore. And I remember at one point saying to a friend, like, I feel so lost and so empty. And what I said to her specifically was, will I ever get my happy back? Will I ever feel happy again? Because it just seemed like that was gone. Yeah, it was hard to get through the day. It was hard to get up. It was hard to engage with life. I guess I attribute that to experiencing quite a high and then sort of coming down and coming back, but then also just feeling this sense of, okay, once you’ve experienced your sort of ideal life in a snapshot, and then it’s no longer. It’s like, where do you go from there? So I struggled for a while, like months, and then I went back. And there’s another piece of this story that I think is really important, and its that I allowed myself to have the experience I was having, and I had people around me who were supportive, and I was able to rest during that period. And I also moved in the direction of just, like, little things that were pleasurable, that were joyful or nourishing or nurturing, and that was really helpful. I almost look at those things as breadcrumbs, you know, sort of in the direction of that experience I was wanting to have and in the direction of some of the things that were maybe more aligned. Yeah. When I did finally go back again, another remarkable experience. Challenging, but remarkable. But there’s something here that I think I really want to point to, and that is this piece around listening to your body and flow. Because I think that really guided me through that dark period multiple times. Because I would later experience depression again on a few other occasions. Those two things saved me every time, listening and paying attention to my body and the courage to surrender to the flow. And I’m really trying to put it in, like, like, really simple and practical terms, I guess. Like, what is the flow? You know, it’s like, well, what I can say is pay attention to what calls you, what moves you, what whispers to you, I suppose. And part of that is tuning into your body. And then if you have the will and the capacity and the courageous move in the direction of that. That really helped me every time.

[00:29:47] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I like that. I think what I took away from that is that depression can be that opportunity. Right. Deep rest. It can be that opportunity to get into the flow and to get out of the busyness, get out of the rat race. And that’s maybe the nature’s way of saying time for you to get into the flow and for you to really look at yourself. So I think one of the best remedies, two things that are really good remedies for depression. Connection being the first one. And then there was a second one. What the heck was it?

[00:30:17] Reno Johnston: The connection piece is huge. Though, because I remember experiencing depression earlier this year. Yeah, I was living downtown in this sort of luxurious apartment as a trial period. I just wanted to know what downtown living in Vancouver was like and if I was into it. And what’s so interesting is that was such an insular experience. Like, I just felt so isolated, which is wild because I’m downtown in the thick of it. But gosh, that was such a lesson in, you know, there’s a concierge in a koi pond and the gym in the building and the pong room and all the stuff, right? And the king size bed and the view and downtown there’s shops and everything, all the things, you know. And I got a taste of what it was like to sort of live that life for a moment. And it was empty, you know, I couldn’t wait to come back to my simple little house here where there was community and connection and it felt like home. And so there’s something there about that connection piece, I think. And that’s why I say sometimes, edgy as it is, like depression can sometimes force us to confront what is before us and to potentially ask us if we’re willing to let it go. And that’s hard because it’s like, well, what? Then? I built all of this. Who’s going to take care of it? What’s going to happen? Where do I go from here? It’s like, well, surrender and then see.

[00:31:44] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, the second thing came back to me, thankfully.

[00:31:47] Reno Johnston: I thought so. Yeah.

[00:31:48] Matt Landsiedel: But curiosity, a remedy to depression, I think. Because when we get submitted and we fall into these depressions, I think it’s an opportunity to turn towards ourselves and get curious about why. Why am I feeling like this? I don’t want to just slap a label onto everybody because we have the nature and then we have the nurture conversation. So if nature is creating and you have got some stuff going on in your brain that you actually need medication for it, like, maybe that isn’t going to help if you’re more on the nature or the nurture side. And it’s like something. Maybe you’re lacking meaning or purpose in your life. Maybe you’re doing too much. Maybe you got some unprocessed trauma, these sorts of things. It’s an opportunity to slow down and enter a healing period, in my opinion. So definitely. And then I wanted. I want to point this out because this is important. So I have a relationship with both depression and anxiety. They kind of come hand in hand. And I think we’d be remiss to have an episode on depression without talking about its sister, anxiety. Right. They go, they’re always together, it seems so, like when I’m going and I’m in these depressive places, I’ll oscillate between depression and anxiety because the anxiety is almost like my system’s way of trying to get me going again. Like, you know, oh, if you’re too tired, you’re not going to have enough energy to do this. What about your clients? And I get into this flight energy, right? And it’s like, again, it’s a trauma response that’s being activated to try and give me energy to keep going. Right? So I’m dancing between these two, and then I start to feel like I’m not doing enough. So I get anxious. And it’s just such a messy, like, soup of, of challenging. It’s just very, very challenging to be stuck in that. And I think the best thing we can do when we’re feeling like that is like, if we can give ourselves periods of time away from whatever’s creating us to be pulled can be helpful. Right. But again, when you’re somebody like, you know, for example, like myself, I’ve got a lot on. Like, I can’t just, like, hand that off to somebody like, that’s the thing about being self-employed. You can’t just take a stress leave from work for however long. Like, I took six weeks, and that’s like, you know, you don’t get income. There’s no income coming in for six weeks. And then you’ve got your clients kind of sitting there waiting for you to return. It’s, it’s can feel like, a lot. You know, I appreciate what you said.

[00:33:55] Reno Johnston: About anxiety as well, because earlier in the conversation, you talked about taking a holistic approach to navigating depression. And there’s something there about feelings that I think is worth touching on. Feelings and states of being that I think is worth touching on. And one thing that I find to be really important, when you’re navigating depression or anxiety or any extended state of being, it’s compassion. You know, it’s compassion. It’s patience. It’s presence. Totally the process, because as you, as you said, like, it can feel really heavy and then the external pressures can set in and resistance can come up. Resistance to what’s happening in the process and what your body and your life may be communicating to you in that moment. And so I think just really slowing down and being with what’s there is really important. And being gentle with yourself while you’re there.

And also every person is different, and how we navigate and experience and cope with depression is going to be different. I guess my invitation would be to suspend judgment and to, as you said, welcome curiosity and explore what works for you. What works for me might not work for you. What works for you might not work for me. What works for them might not work for us. Right.

[00:35:34] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:35:35] Reno Johnston: And so I think what you said about curiosity is really, really important. Begin to explore and notice, you know, what. What does work for you and what doesn’t. And that may be medication and it may not. It may be, you know, a change of scenery and it may not. It may be a complete overhaul of your life and it may be just some minor tweaks.

[00:35:58] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. And I guess we’re moving on to question two. How have you dealt with your depression? I think. Right, yeah. Medication. So I’ve had to take medication twice in my. In my life. Once when I went through a really bad breakup. It was like an eight-year relationship that I was in, and I just struggled wanting to end that relationship. He was my best friend, and it didn’t end well. And so I definitely fell into a depression. And then this period of time, I’ve been on medication kind of here and there. I try not to stay on it for too long. I use it when I’m. When things get really dark and then, yeah, rest, you know, reducing my workload’s been huge. Therapy, obviously. Like, if you’re somebody that has trauma, like, trauma is going to be a massive precursor to depression. Unprocessed, unhealed trauma. So getting into doing maybe some EMDR or some internal family systems work or what are other good modalities? Somatic experiencing somatic therapies, things like that. So you can start to process some of the stuff that’s stuck in the body and then authentic relating. Okay. Because there’s a lot of shame that it revolves around being depressed. It’s like, you know, I find, like, when I’m depressed, I don’t want to be around people. I don’t want to bog people down, so I’ll isolate, and then the isolation creates more depression. And so learning to authentically relate and just share with people where I’m at, I don’t wear masks anymore. Like, if I’m feeling depressed and I’m out with my friends, they’re going to know I’m depressed. Like, I’m not going to be the guy that’s, like, put on a brave face. Like, I’m just. I can’t be like that. I feel like I’ve done enough work on myself where I’m like, I just. I’m very congruent with how I’m feeling, and I share what’s. What’s up with me. So that’s help, though. Authentic relating is how I learned those skills of how to, like, share my full self. And that’s been a really big one. And then the last thing I wrote here is thought discipline. So our thoughts can take us into dark places, and they can, you know, when we have these beliefs about ourselves and we’re perpetuating them with the thoughts we think about ourselves. And as an empath, like, if I believe every thought that I. That I have, and I identify with every thought that I have. Oh, my gosh. Like, I’m picking up on things, and I think we all have this capacity, and especially when we’re dreaming or we’re in, like, rem states or things, we’re picking up on the collective energies, and with that comes thought forms. So I strongly encourage people to not identify or believe every thought you think. Thousands of thoughts are running through our minds every day. And I’ll sometimes be laying there on my couch, and I’ll be hearing thoughts that aren’t mine. It’ll just be like, and these aren’t voices in my head, people. I’m not schizophrenic or anything, but they’re thought forms of the people around me in my building, maybe people in the collective. And I just like, I’m like, okay, like, I’m going to let these run. I’m not going to grab onto them. I’m not going to identify with them. I’m just going to let them be there. So there’s that piece. But then I also want to say, like, sometimes we need to go into those places, because if we’re always just bypassing and not working with our thoughts and not working with our emotions and not attaching, then we don’t go to the heart of the darkness. And I think sometimes, and this is more of a spiritual perspective of doing this work, depression means meeting the darkness, going towards it, being with the dark thoughts and observing them. And there’s kind of a fine line between thought discipline and going towards what is creating darkness for us. And maybe that is thoughts. Maybe it’s getting clear about where are these thoughts coming from? Which belief is this thought coming from within me, or where in my psyche is this stuff stored that I may need to meet? Right. Shadow work is a perfect example. One of the ways we meet our shadows is through our thoughts. It’s kind of a fine line. So I’m kind of talking out both sides of my mouth right now, but is that not the spiritual path? It’s like there’s always two sides of. Of the mouth. When you’re. When you’re doing this work, it just depends on where on the journey you’re at.

[00:39:40] Reno Johnston: Yeah. Wise words.

[00:39:41] Matt Landsiedel: Any other tips that you have for how you’ve dealt with depression? Sounds like rest and slowing down has been a big one for you.

[00:39:48] Reno Johnston: Yeah, big rest. Slowing down. Picking up the phone again, like, I keep coming back to rigorous honesty because that’s huge. You know what I mean when I say that for myself, at least, is it’s honoring what’s there, and it’s honoring the process. I can remember calling a few different people and having a few different conversations and saying, I think I might be depressed. I have these moments. I remember talking to one of my friends, and I said to her, this was this year, actually, at one point when I was kind of navigating depression for a period. And it was weird because I was so confused. I was like, why am I. I’m sleeping a lot. I’m sleeping a lot. I’m sleeping in a lot. I feel like I’m chasing.

It’s like I’m trying to find a feeling, and I can’t seem to find it. It’s not in the bottom of that bowl of ramen. It’s not in that new piece of clothing. Where is it? It’s not there. Yeah. I just felt is, like, flatlined. And I called my friend, and I said to her, I think I’m depressed. I said, I had this thought recently of just, like, leaning out the window of the building and kind of falling to my demise. And I said, don’t worry, I’m not going to do it. Right? But the relief that I felt in my body having that thought. And I have chills right now because it’s like, when I didn’t understand what that was about originally, it scared me because I was like, what? Where did that come from? Why am I having that thought? It happened another time when I’d had this nightmare. And in this nightmare, this dark figure was slashing my wrists, and I felt relief. And I remember waking up, and there was this feeling that if I just kind of slipped out of the world that morning, that I would just feel relieved. And I called people every time that happened because I knew I needed to talk to somebody, right? So I called someone, and I. I called someone who I knew wasn’t going to freak out. Like, I had the sense to call someone who I knew wasn’t going to freak out because I was like, I don’t need that right now. I don’t want that right now. I’m just going through something and I need to reach out. And the dialogue started to create space for some of the feeling and what was occurring to be spoken about and expressed through talk. Sometimes it happens through movement as well. I know, like, moving has helped in addition to resting, dialogue has really helped me. You mentioned therapy. That’s big. My therapy was my friends at that time, to be honest. My friends and my family. There’s that. And then just being really kind of kind to myself during those periods. Like, not pushing it. Like, not pushing it. Not forcing it. If you can call in your supports, call them in. I know what I’m going to do here, but, like, I need time off or I need time to rest or I need someone to come in and just, like, make some food for me or something. You know what I mean? But, like, let your people in. That was big. Letting my people in?

[00:43:01] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:43:01] Reno Johnston: Yeah, those things. And the last thing was going into it. And I’m not saying that’s what you always do, but for me, like, the way I was through.

[00:43:11] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, that’s the spiritual path. The way out is through. You got to go through the fire in order to rise from the ashes and become the phoenix. Right. That’s the spiritual path. It’s definitely tests your character.

[00:43:22] Reno Johnston: Yeah.

[00:43:23] Matt Landsiedel: I want to build off what you just said because I think it’s really important. Support. It’s the number one protective factor, in my opinion, for anything, for suicide, for addiction, for depression. Most mental health, like, connection is the cure. If we want to use that. And I use air quotes when I say cure because sometimes there isn’t a cure. Sometimes it’s just, you know, developing resilience because I struggle finding support because I find there’s very few people out there that can hold space for the things I’m navigating. That’s my issue. I have a hard time finding people that can hold space. Even therapists I’ve had, like, I’m like, you’re a trained therapist. Like, really? Like, I’m like, come on. Like, you gotta be able to. So for me, I’ve been to some really deep, deep, dark places. I need somebody who can match me in those places. So I need therapists who’ve done their work and are living their spiritual path. So that’s. That’s one piece of it here. But I came up with four tips of becoming a safe person someone can share their depression with, because these are, I think, skills that will help you in just relationships in general. But somebody that’s experiencing depression, number one, they are looking for connection, not correction. People who are depressed do not want to be cheered up by you. They don’t want you to come over and try and cheer them up and tell them jokes. They want to be seen, felt and experienced in their pain. So show up and just be like, hey, I rented a movie and bought a box of brownies. Let’s pig out and watch a movie and be sad together or whatever. Do you know what I mean? I think when people show up and try and cheer people up, all you’re doing is showing somebody that you’re not comfortable with them being sad and that then it perpetuates their shame. So meet them where they’re at as opposed to trying to fix them or solve them. And I know that that’s hard because some people that are people pleasers, they really want to show up and try and help the person through it. But sometimes helping them through it is to just sit beside them and just hold their hand or cuddle with them. Co regulation snuggling. It can be a really beautiful way to let the nervous system settle. So that’s my first tip, connection over correction. Second tip is get curious by asking questions. So just taking a genuine interest in them. That’s it. No solving, no nothing. Just what is it like to be you right now? Share with me. I want to understand what’s going on for you. And then when they share what’s going on for them, not trying to come up with solutions or fix them, just being like, wow, that must be tough, what you’re going through, and humanize it. Humanize and normalize that this person is suffering and that it’s okay to suffer. It’s part of the human experience. And then listen. That’s my third tip. Listen to them. Actively listen to what they have to say. Just be there. Right. Active listening involves, like, reflecting. So when they share that they’re hurting and that whatever’s coming up for them, you can reflect and be like, you know, I’m hearing that you’re hurting and. Right. So reflection is a big piece of listening, and then they’ll feel heard. And then the other big piece of active listening is validated. So that’s the fourth tip, is validate what they are experiencing. So simple statements of validation can go a long way. And they might sound like, you know, it’s okay to feel what you’re feeling. You don’t have to be on for me. People that are feeling depressed, they feel like, oh, I can’t be depressed around people. They feel shame that they’re depressed, so they try and be on another one is like, whatever you’re feeling, it’s okay to feel it. I’m here for you. And then relating. You know, I’ve had periods of depression in my life, too, and I know what you’re going through. You’re not alone. Like, these are really beautiful things that you can say to somebody that’s struggling with depression, because they really, again, like I said, they want to be seen and recognized and noticed in their pain and not try and be taken away from it. It’s a big part of the healing journey. Right?

[00:46:55] Reno Johnston: Those are good. Wow. Really good. Yeah.

[00:46:58] Matt Landsiedel: Thank you.

[00:46:59] Reno Johnston: Especially that peace around people, like, people support that can meet you where you’re at. It’s huge, because I know people mean well. You know, when they come in and they’re trying to, like, cheer you up and amp you up, it’s like, I know you mean well, but, like, I don’t want that right now. Yeah, just come be with me. That’s it. Just come be with me. That’s it.

[00:47:19] Matt Landsiedel: Some of my best friends, like, we can just sit in silence together, and our nervous systems are doing the work. Our souls are doing the work. Nothing’s to be said. So sometimes if you don’t know what to say and you’re somebody that isn’t really good with this sort of stuff, just being there, like what Reno just said, just being there is enough. But, yeah, like, when somebody tries to cheer me up, when I’m feeling like that, it’s like, oh, next level agitation. I’m just like, Casey, please get away from me.

[00:47:43] Reno Johnston: You know, speaking of agitation, I had this thought, too. You know, I don’t want to share this as a prescription. It’s more just something that makes sense to me and take it with a grain of salt. Look for the grief. Look for the anger. Look for the guilt. Look for the shame. Look for the burden. My experience is that somewhere in those places, you’re probably going to begin to find and uncover again curiosity. What’s weighing you down? What’s. What is behind that depression. You know, I think it’s often connected in some ways. Yes. I want to emphasize. There’s the piece. I think you talked about nature. Some of us come in with predispositions, right. And we require medication and we require, you know, different kinds of support. And then I think there’s a piece where what I’ve seen for myself is beginning to look at where the shame is, where the guilt is in my body and in my life, in my psyche, where the burden is, where the grief is. It’s like, where is that? And as we said earlier, for me, going into that and beginning to explore that and start to dig some of that up and release some of that game changer. And I would say some of it I’ve done alone, and a lot of it I’ve done with support.

You have to find your unique rhythm and flavor for navigating this stuff. But I think, like you said, support is huge as you’re going through this and there’s light at the end of the tunnel, is what I want to say. I’m treading lightly there because I know it doesn’t always feel that way for everyone. And I think if someone said that to me when I was in the thick of it, I’d just be like, whatever. We’re like, fuck off. So if that’s you right now, I hear you and I totally get it. And also, like, I guess I just want to share a message of optimism because that’s who I am.

[00:49:35] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I appreciate that about you.

All right, we got to start landing the plane here. So I want to just.

I want to call on the audience. I want you, if you’re listening on YouTube, I want you to drop in the comments. What’s your relationship to depression? What do you do to get out of ruts or deal with depression? Let’s normalize this conversation. It’s an important one, in my opinion. Drop the comments and let us know. And if you want to continue this conversation, you’re enjoying this conversation. You want your voice to be heard? Please come and join us. On the last Thursday of every month, we have our Sharing Circles, which is larger groups share and we stay in one big pod. And then we also have our Connection Circles, which is pods of three, three to four. And you can share more intimately. And these would be a great opportunity for you to come and share about your experiences with depression. And if you don’t have depression or never dealt with it, maybe it’s an opportunity for you to come and support. Support and learn from people that have struggled with this. Because people that are struggling with this need support. We need people to understand where we’re coming from. So if this sounds like something you’d be interested in, you can go to gaymansbrotherhood.com. check out our event section to RSVP. If you don’t have Facebook you can get on our email list and we’ll email you the zoom links for those. Yeah. Any closing comments before we fully land the plane here? Reno?

[00:50:48] Reno Johnston: Yeah, just if you’re listening and you or someone you know is currently navigating depression, know that you are loved and you know you are not alone. It may feel like that and that may be your current experience. But we’re out there, as we’ve shared, like, you’ve been through it, I’ve been through it. And a lot of people I know who have and who are navigating it as well. So you aren’t alone.

[00:51:11] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I want to piggyback on that, too, because I know there’s a lot of people in our community that are like therapists and coaches and counselors and lightworkers. And we can sometimes carry around this belief that we shouldn’t be struggling, that we should have it all figured out. And that’s why I’m very vocal about my mental health is because I’ve got all the tools in my toolbox. But life is life. Like when you’re in this realm and you’re doing this work like we are teaching people life, life is so vast. It’s so big. So give yourself space to have your own mental health stuff and your own stuff coming up. And let’s like normalize that too, because I know so many therapists, I actually have a lot of therapists in my caseload that I work with and they’re all struggling too. But we have to put on this face that we’re not and it just creates toxicity and shame around it. So it actually makes us human. And a lot of this work is human hearts coming together, right? And yeah, thank you, Reno for coming and sharing your story.

Yeah, I really appreciated your vulnerability today and meeting me where I’m at, I felt like you were able to meet me. So it’s really beautiful.

[00:52:14] Reno Johnston: Thank you.

[00:52:15] Matt Landsiedel: And to our listener viewer, as always, thank you for coming on this journey with us, letting us impact your life and spending an hour with us each week. We love you and appreciate you just remembering that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you do enjoy what we’re creating, you can make a donation to the community. The link will be in the show notes if you feel inspired to contribute to the community and you can also subscribe to early access option on Apple. This gives you ad free early access to episodes. All your support helps us continue making content for you and supporting our community. And we thank you in advance. And yes, we hope to see you at one of our events. If you’re not with us yet, come into the Gay Men’s Brotherhood on Facebook Events tab. All the events are listed there. If you’re not on Facebook, you can go to our website, gaymensbrotherhood.com, go to the event section, and you can get a sense of what we’re offering as far as bringing people together so we can heal together and grow together. All right, much love, everybody.