Hookup Culture and Self-Discovery

[00:00:01] Michael DiIorio: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men’s Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I’m your host today. And I’m Michael Diorio. And joining me are Matt Landsiedel and Reno Johnston. Today we are talking about ‘Hookup Culture and Self-Discovery’. We’re going to be exploring questions like, what have you learned about yourself through your casual hookups? What best practices do you have that protect your well being when having casual hookups? And what advice would you give someone who wants to feel more empowered in their hookups? What we want you to get out of today’s episode is insight on how hookups or casual sex, when approached thoughtfully, can actually be a fun and empowering source of your own personal growth. If you are new here, welcome please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. All right, so the initial idea for this episode was just hookup culture. And I got to thinking about it and the typical discourse on this topic is, you know, the usual, is it good? Is it bad? Pros, cons, all that good stuff. And I thought, okay, yeah, sure, we can start there. But I want to go beyond that question this time because Spoiler alert. Like everything in life, hookup culture is both good and bad. And it’s a completely subjective opinion based on who you are and your needs and desires in that particular moment in your life. So what’s good for me may be bad for you, and what’s good for me today may be bad for me tomorrow. So it all depends. Plus, I was thinking after 217, what episodes, we’ve talked a lot about the benefits and drawbacks of hookup culture. So if you’re new here, here’s what I’m gonna do for a little intro and get you all up to speed and summarize dozens of podcast hours dedicated to this topic in about two minutes. I’m just gonna go over for you some of the more common drawbacks and the more common benefits. And now we can tackle the topic of how we can use this for our personal growth. Okay, so common drawbacks that we hear about is that the rejection over time can impact your self confidence. Another drawback is that that lack of deeper emotional intimacy can actually lead and amplify feelings of loneliness and isolation over time. Okay. And that could be a trigger for even previous trauma. So Abandonment, rejection, other wounds. There is the obvious physical risk of STIs and HIV if you’re not protecting yourself. Then there’s the tendency of people to use hookups as a way to avoid deeper issues such as loneliness, low self worth. So it’s a way to numb a lot of pain. And if you’re numbing the pain, you’re not dealing with the pain. So that’s an issue for a lot of guys out there. And then there is the tendency to use hookups and casual sex as a way to gain validation through your looks and appearances from the notches in your bed post instead of actually developing a strong sense of self worth and self confidence that comes from within, that does not come from how many guys you fuck. And then of course, you can get stuck on the validation seeking cycle. Okay, those are some of the common drawbacks, common benefits that we hear about. It’s a great way to meet people and I can speak to this personally. Some of my best friends have started off as a hookup and now they have become lifetime friends of mine. It also creates opportunities to feel validated and affirmed as being desirable and attractive. It feels good to be wanted. It feels nice. It is a confidence boost for sure to have that. We were just saying before this episode, sometimes you just gotta get it and that’s okay. Another benefit is that it’s a great way to explore your sexuality so you can try new things with different people. You can get a taste of what you like. If you’re kind of curious about trying something, you can do that. And you can do this all without the obligation of trying to maintain connection or having to have a commitment, like a long term commitment. You can just kind of try it out. If you like it, great. If not, that’s fine too. Sometimes you just need your salad tossed. And for many guys, this feels very liberating, like you just need to get it. You don’t need to have everything else that goes with it. And that’s fine too, right? And the last one I would say is that casual sex can be can be a great way to heal sexual shame. So if you grew up believing that sex was wrong or should be hidden like I did, then having these hookups can really allow you to take ownership of your sexuality and express it freely the way you want, without any shame and without any guilt. And the last but not least, one of my very personal favorite benefit. It’s fun. Okay, so there you go. That sums up a lot of the benefits and drawbacks. So whether you love them or Hate them or fall somewhere in between. The fact is, hookup culture is part of gay culture and has been for decades. There’s lots of reasons about that. There’s lots of reasons for that. Rather, many historians and very smart people have dedicated a lot of pages and books about this. We’re not going to talk about that today. What we are going to talk about is that it can be a powerful tool for getting to know yourself on a deeper level. And so what I’m suggesting here is that what you learn about yourself in your hookups and in your casual sex can actually be our transferable skills in relating to others and other areas of your life and area where you can find personal growth. So today we’re going to show you how you can use hookup culture and casual sex to discover more about who you are, truly, authentically discover more about your boundaries, and to discover what it is you truly want. And we’re going to do this in our favorite way by sharing our own personal stories and lessons we’ve picked up along the way. So this is going to be a juicy one. We’re going to be sharing some of our stories as a way to give you guys insights for your own personal life. So let’s get started. First question we have today. What have you learned about yourself through your casual hookups? Let’s start with Matt. Bathhouse Matt. We just learned Bathhouse Matt.

[00:05:49] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I was just. I was just saying off, off camera that I used to go to the bathhouse a lot in my twenties. So who you see today and who you hear today is very different from who I was in my 20s. I was not demisexual, or at least I was not connected to that part of myself. I was very promiscuous. I was in an open relationship. I was with him for eight years, and four of those years we were open. So it’s just interesting. I have. I do have this experience. I know for a lot of people who started learning about me just from this podcast, on this podcast, I’ve spoken a lot about the new versions of myself that I’ve been connecting with, which is demisexual, which requires some form of connection. So casual sex doesn’t really happen. Hookup sex doesn’t really happen anymore. But I do have a lot of experience. And I think this question allowed me to, like, just walk down memory lane and really get clear about, yeah, like, what I learned about myself throughout these processes. And I think hookup culture for me, or just hookup sex for me was where I learned about my desires. Like What I wanted to explore, going to the bar, kissing, making out with guys on the dance floor, going home with them, you know, like, you’re just. It was all about self discovery for me. And that was really beautiful because I was able to kind of taste the rainbow and really get clear about what it is that I would desire. I was able to connect with, you know, my inner top and my inner bottom. So I think my sexual preferences and needs really kind of got Shawn on, like, and I was able to see like, this is, this is what makes me tick. The other thing I learned about myself through casual hookups was that I struggle and did struggle a lot to express what I need in the bedroom. I had sexual trauma happen when I was around 19 and then a same very similar thing happened when I was about 20, so about all within a two year window. And my hookups showed me that I was freezing insects. Either freezing or fawning, which is like, freezing is like become almost like paralyzed to your needs. You just dissociate in the, in the experience you’re not actually connecting to your body. So I wouldn’t feel certain pain, these sorts of things. And then the fawning was I would be, I would do things that maybe I didn’t want to do. So again, part of it was like learning, okay, this, you know. And I would have sex with older men a lot. So I felt this pressure that I had to like, please them or I had to do what they wanted to do. And this was like usually in my earlier years. So I think I learned again how to have boundaries and how to advocate for what I need and what I want sexually. So that was a big piece of it. And, and then through my casual hookups, I think I talked about this on, on an episode prior, but the very last actual hookup, hookup that I had where a guy just came over and I didn’t really know anything about him. And we had sex was when I was in Thailand. So that was six years ago. And he came over and we had sex and my body wasn’t performing. I couldn’t get an erection. I was like, what the heck is going on? And it just, I felt really, it was almost like an outer body experience. And I was like, I was really being shown in that experience like, you know, that I dissociate insects that I, you know, I didn’t want this. My body essentially protested because my mind was like, oh, he’s hot, we gotta hook up. And I was playing the narrative that I had always played, which was very habitual and so he leaves and I went into like a week long depression after that and my body was flat depressed. It was, it needed rest. It was so then ever since then I’ve been on this path of learning about myself and I think my sexuality and my spirituality converged and that was what that experience was showing me. And so I haven’t really been a hookup ever since then because I haven’t been able to perform if it’s just a hookup because my body doesn’t feel safe. So I think hookups really again that it showed me I need connection. That’s the biggest thing. And it doesn’t have to be like, I know you for a year. No, like I’ve, like I’ve said I’ve gone on a date and that date lasted eight hours and we had sex that night. So. But it’s just the way I think about hookup culture is you don’t really know them. They come over or even if it’s discreet, you know nothing about them. You don’t know their name. That’s kind of how I frame it. I know for some people they might hook up differently than that, but that’s kind of how I look at hookup culture. So yeah, the connection allows me to kind of feel safe so I can perform, I can feel arousal and I won’t feel gross afterwards. Because usually with hookup sex, if I don’t know them, and especially if I’ve like taken their like load inside my body, I’m like, I now I know, like I have got this person’s DNA inside my body and I don’t know anything about them, you know what I mean? So that’s like a big thing. So I think it’s hookups showed me my parameters. It allowed me to really see like the type of sex that I want to be having. So yeah, I’ve learned a lot. And I’ve also to what you’re saying. I had so much fun in my twenties. Like I was sexually compulsive. I had sex with a lot of people and I had a lot of fun, a lot of great sex, a lot of great kissing, making out, all those sorts of things. So I don’t regret it in any way, shape or form. I think it was a part of a big part of my self discovery.

[00:10:57] Michael DiIorio: I love that answer. I love that answer. You learned so much about yourself through that, Matt.

[00:11:02] Matt Landsiedel: Totally love it.

[00:11:03] Michael DiIorio: How about you, Reno?

[00:11:04] Reno Johnston: Okay, so I’m going to kind of go down the list maybe somewhat quickly and then I want to share A story. Okay. So I learned that at the time, I would say, like, not so skilled at boundaries and as Matt had mentioned previously, expressing what I need and. And want what I don’t need and don’t want. That was tricky for me sometimes. Not in every case, because, you know, for example, I knew I wasn’t really into being anally penetrated or orally penetrated, right? And y’all are probably thinking, like, well, then what do you do?

We found ways, right? I was, like, more into sort of receiving oral pleasure or, like, you know, heavy petting, making out, grinding, like that sort of thing. Scissoring. Imagine I’m not a lesbian, but you can do that. But, yeah, so, like, these are some of the things that I was into. And then, you know, as far as penetration went, what I learned was like, oh, I’m into oral and anal penetration as long as I’m in partnership. So that was something I discovered about myself. There were times where it was hard to communicate that because I would feel guilty, like, oh. And some guys actually would say to me, like, you know, you don’t have to do. You don’t have to reciprocate, or something like that. I remember one of the first times someone said that to me, I was like, oh, thanks. They’re like, yeah, just lay back. Like, you’re good. And I was so shocked. I thought, oh. Because there was always this narrative in my mind that if they performed oral on me, I had to perform it on them. I was like, oh, you mean I don’t have to. And I don’t have to feel guilty for just receiving, like, and they’re actually enjoying that I’m just receiving. That’s amazing, right? So that was really cool. I learned that I dislike too much tongue. Like, if we’re making out, just, you know, like, ease up on the tongue. I don’t mind a bit of it, but, like, not too much. Oh, my gosh.

[00:13:09] Michael DiIorio: Love this instruction manual we’re getting. I love it.

[00:13:12] Reno Johnston: Oh, for real, please. Like, not too much. You know, like, save that for my booty hole. You know, like, all the tongue there, but, like, in my mouth. No, I’m more demisexual than not. That’s what I discovered as well. I didn’t even know that terminology back when I was hooking up, right? But I was like, oh, this is interesting. I’d really like to have conversation and connect with people, especially when I’m not feeling shameful about the fact that I’m having gay sex. Right. I prefer protected sex outside of relationship. So in relationship there’s more openness. But outside of it, I’m like. I use condoms. Like, I’m gonna say 99% of the time. 99.9% of the time. There were a couple of exceptions. And actually, it was really fun the first time it happened, and then the second time. So this is another teachable moment, is I have my first experience with. I think it was like, chlamydia or something like that. I’m admitting that I don’t care. It’s fine.

[00:14:16] Matt Landsiedel: Who hasn’t had it, right?

[00:14:18] Reno Johnston: Exactly. So, see, I. This was, like. It was earlier this year. It had never happened to me before. But I do remember, like, years ago, I had this hookup, and I was, like, a teenager. And I remember it was so terrifying because I’m like. I was super itchy, like, days after, and I’m like, what’s going on? And in my mind, I’m like, oh, my God. Like, what if I have, like, herpes? Or who knows, right? Like, I didn’t know. I. I’m new to things. Well, I go to the doctor or the health nurse, and she says to me, oh, no, no, no, you’re good. Like, she said, you have scabies. And I was like, what is that? And so she explained it to me, and I was like, oh, my God, this is awful. She’s like, no, it’s okay. Like, you just apply this cream, you know, you let it sit for like an hour or something, and then you rinse off, and, you know, you’re good. And I was like, thank God. But for those of you who don’t know, it’s kind of like the equivalent of, like, lice, but in your skin. Like, it’s weird and gross and awful and just, you know, be careful out there, kids. So I learned to be safe as well, because. Okay, so this is the other thing. Listen to your eyes and your intuition, because this guy, at that time, I remember something felt off. I was like, something feels off. And I even saw some things that were, like, flags for me, but I didn’t listen, right? I just proceeded. So then after the fact, when it happened, I was like, damn, I saw that coming. Why didn’t I stop myself? Or, like, say something? And this is one of the things that comes up, is it’s like, oh, I don’t want to embarrass them, or I don’t want to feel embarrassed, or I don’t want to feel uncomfortable. You know, inquiring, like, hey, what’s that? I noticed, like, there’s some bumps on your Your pecker. Like, what’s that about, right? Like, are you allowed to say that? I think you are, but, like, you know, it’s edgy, so there’s that, right? Just paying attention, like, if something feels off, you know, I learned, like, honor that, right? And then expectations versus, like, agreements and communication. So I think when I was in the early stages of exploration of hooking up, I noticed, like, there was less communication and more expectation on both ends. And what I’ve learned as I’ve matured is to really just like, be more vocal, you know, to be more vocal, to come in with sort of a blank slate. Like, have ideas, have imaginations, have fantasies, you know, and then maybe, like, have a bit of communication. And sometimes you don’t need to. There’s, like, verbal communication. There’s nonverbal communication, right? But.

So, okay, two things. One, I grew up in rural Manitoba for five and a half years. So I was living this double life, right? I’m the only black kid in my high school. I’m, like, so into dudes, and I’m hooking up behind the scenes, and there’s, like, guys driving in from the city to come and, like, hook up with me in their cars or in, like, fucking alleys and stuff like that. Like, it was. It was hot, though. I loved it because, like, I would go to high school the next day and just feel like such a bad bitch because I’m, like, hooking up with these, like, older guys behind the scenes, and nobody knows this is going on. So it was super fun. But regarding hookups, I checked off this bucket list fantasy two weeks ago, I think, or something like that. I went to this bar called Pump Jacks in Vancouver. And if you’re from Vancouver, you’ve been here. You know what I’m talking about. And I’m dancing on stage, and this Brazilian guy walks by, and we make eye contact, and he, like, smirks at me, and I smirk at him, and I keep dancing. So later I get up and I’m walking and I see him sitting at a table. So I walk over to go say hello to him, and we started talking, and he’s like, yeah, my English isn’t so good, but, you know, we can communicate. And so I say to him, do you dance? And he’s like, yeah. And I said, okay, let’s go dance. So we hit the dance floor, and inevitably, we’re practically having sex on the dance floor, like, you know, with our clothes on. So I was like. I whispered in his ear. I was like, do you want to Fuck. And he was like, yeah. And I said, my place or the bathroom? Now in my mind, I’m hoping he says, the bathroom, because on my bucket list is this dream of hooking up in the bathroom. I haven’t done it yet. So he says, yeah, no, let’s go to the bathroom. I was like, yes. So we head over to the bathroom. He’s like, do you have any condoms? I said, no, but we’re at PJs. Like, they have those boxes with the condoms and the lube and everything. So we’re set. So we go into this bathroom and we hook up in this bathroom. It was so hot. It was so hot. It was so much fun. Now too much tongue. This is where this comes from. I was like, ease up on the tongue. Please ease up on the tongue. You know? But aside from that, we had a good time. Great guy. We’re very polite, thanked each other, hugged it out, and then went our separate ways. And it was hot and cordial and amazing and check. So, you know, it’s so fun. Hooking up can be so fun. I don’t do it all the time, but when I do, it’s a blast.

[00:19:46] Michael DiIorio: I love all these examples, guys. Yeah. So both of you guys had said ones that, I mean, I didn’t have for myself, but, like, those all pertain to me as well. Everything that both of you have said. I think I have two that I want to speak to. One was the one I alluded to at the beginning, which was sexual shame. And it was, for me, in my shame healing journey, the way, like, the doors just burst open when I first started having sex with men, because I realized. And my. My first sexual encounters with men were casual sex from, like, gay.com, if anyone remembers that. That’s how old I am. So, you know, it taught me that sex is normal, sex is natural, sex is beautiful, sex is wonderful. It’s actually meant to be enjoyable and playful. And it completely liberated me from these very heavy, heavy feelings I had around sex because I was taught to believe, first of all, we don’t talk about sex, period. It’s shameful and dirty not to be talked about. But then especially for the fact that I wanted to have it with men. And that was very heavy as something that I was very ashamed of. So sex in general was a heavy topic. The fact that I wanted to have sex with men was an even heavier topic. That brought me a lot of shame. So to meet all these other people who are just very. I don’t know what the word is. Just you know, not very serious about. It was actually really nice for me. I was like, oh, okay, well, this is very casual. That sort. It’s very casual. So it normalized that for me. It taught me that, oh, hey, I’m not the only one here. There’s a lot of people who want to do the things I want to do, and if this is wrong, then I don’t want to be right, because this felt really good. Right? Uh, so it was the first foray for me to reclaiming that sense of sexual empowerment, sexual agency. I took ownership of it. I loved it. I love dick. I like ass. I like men. I like the male form. I love it all, like, just like, okay, this is not something I need to be ashamed of as much. That’s the first one. And I was. I was about. Yeah, maybe like, I was 19 at the time, so 19, 20. And the other one that I would say is it was a big confidence booster for me. And there’s a caveat here that I will talk about at the end. There’s a shadow side to using it as the only way to get your confidence. But I will say how it did work for me. Okay. When I first started hug camp with guys, I had just come out. It was amazing. As I said, it was very liberating. But one of the things that I learned is, like, oh, my God, I’m actually desirable. I never saw myself as that. I never thought I was a hawkeye. I thought all the other guys in my class were the hot guys, jocks, you know, all the things I was not that. And so it was actually really nice to be the object of someone’s desire. And it felt good. And again, there was nothing wrong with that, my friends. But what happened with me, and I’ve talked about this, is it became. It really did become my only form of self confidence. That I did end up relying on that for quite a bit of my 20s. And that dopamine was just. I was on that hands fruit of, like, give me more, give me more. Give me more of that extreme validation that comes with it. When hot guys want you, it feels really good. So through this same process, I’ve also had to learn to not do that and to actually. Because when I was rejected sexually or when things didn’t come my way, it was like, devastating to me. Like, that fucking guy and all these things. I’m like, oh, hey, Michael, we are really far off here. So it also allowed me my hookups. Like, having too many of them also allowed me to realize, wait a minute, Something is a mess. I’m getting too much from this, and I need to, like, chill out a bit. And now I’ve landed somewhere in the middle. So I know when. I know when I’m doing that, and I know when it’s just for fun. So I will say to everyone out there, you know, have your fun with it. Let it give you a nice little boost of confidence, but don’t let it be your only source of self confidence, because it is a trap, my friends. I’ve been down that road, and it’s very, very difficult to get out of. Okay. That, in fact, might be the biggest lesson I’ve learned from all of this, is because I. I hit my low point when I was having the most hookups, and I was doing it for all the wrong reasons, as I say. So a lot of great lessons from all three of us.

[00:23:31] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. I’m curious. How old were you guys when you had your first hookup with a guy?

[00:23:36] Michael DiIorio: 19.

[00:23:37] Matt Landsiedel: 19.

[00:23:38] Reno Johnston: Depends on what you mean.

[00:23:40] Matt Landsiedel: I know what you. I know what you’re alluding to, but I would say in your adult, like, okay, like, not like, young boys playing.

[00:23:46] Reno Johnston: Okay. Okay. Well, then, like, 16. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[00:23:51] Michael DiIorio: And you?

[00:23:51] Matt Landsiedel: I was 18.

[00:23:52] Reno Johnston: You were 18. Yeah.

[00:23:54] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:23:55] Reno Johnston: Wait, so, Michael, question for you. What have you learned recently? Like, most recently, what is something you’ve taken away?

[00:24:02] Michael DiIorio: Yeah. So I kind of use hookups as a bit of a litmus test. For what? What I need. Sometimes I think I know what I need, and then I’m in the hookup and I’m like, oh, no, this is not similar to what I was saying. Like, things just don’t work. Like, I was on a hookup after my recent breakup, and I thought, okay, yeah, I’m ready. Let’s do this. Yeah, it’s okay. Let’s, you know, best way to get over someone’s Skinner, somebody else committing. And I did it. I did the thing, and we’re there, and nope. Like, I couldn’t. I was like, no, I’m not ready yet. So I think it has helped me better understand what I need, and now I honor that. Like, kind of like what Matt was saying. Like, before, I would get really hard on myself. Like, what’s wrong with me? I have to do this. And I’m just like, no, that’s not what I need. I don’t identify as a demisexual, but there’s so much more of me that is in certain ways, with certain times, in certain places, and I’ve really come to honor that, that side of me. For example, these days here I’m in Italy right now, I don’t want to just have a hookup. I want to actually meet the person and go on a bit of a date first. And I don’t know if that’s. Some people might not count that as a hookup based on that definition that Mao was saying earlier. But I want to have sex. I just, like, let’s just go for dinner first, you know? So it kind of tells me where I need connection.

[00:25:06] Matt Landsiedel: I would say that’s the difference between hookup and casual sex. Casual sex is, like, where maybe you go on a first date and it’s casual. Like, it’s there, nothing. There’s no commitment required from it. Whereas a hookup, in my mind is impulsive. It’s like you. You meet on an app, come over to my house, and you just start fucking right away. There’s no prior engagement. That’s kind of how I view it. Some people might define it differently, and that’s totally fine.

[00:25:29] Michael DiIorio: But, yeah, especially because it’s something that I do enjoy doing, and so I do use it as a litmus test. Like, okay, let’s try this now. Okay, let’s try this now. Okay, let’s try this now. And then I know where I’m at internally.

[00:25:42] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. How did you handle that situation where you realize that you weren’t quite ready for it? Because I think that’s an interesting thing to broach, like, with the audience, so that if we ever put ourselves in a situation where we commit to a hookup and maybe during it, or we get there and we’re like, this doesn’t feel quite right. Like, how do you handle that?

[00:26:00] Michael DiIorio: Because, yeah, in this case, it was really easy because the guy was great, and I kind of. I knew him, and so I just told him the truth. I was like, I thought I was ready for this. It turns out I’m not. This has nothing to do with you, obviously. My grandma’s like. And we still cuddled. We had a nice time. We still did that. And luckily, he held space for that. It was lovely. But I just. I made it very clear that it was a me thing. Right. And it wasn’t that I wasn’t attracted to him as I was. I really wanted to, but I’m like, body says no.

[00:26:27] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:26:28] Michael DiIorio: Is that what you would have done in that similar situation? This is for both of you. What would you do?

[00:26:33] Reno Johnston: I had this happen recently, and I lied. It was not good. I lied because I was so uncomfortable. But listen. Okay, folks, I know we want to put our best foot forward. But, like, you need to put accurate photos of yourself on your accounts, because if you show up and you don’t look the way you do in your pics, I’m sorry, but that isn’t good for either of us. And so this guy came over and I was like, oh, I’m sorry, but, like, you don’t look the way you do in your picture. And so I basically lied and said I didn’t know my housemate was going to be home across the hall. And I was like, sorry, it’s not going to work. And he was not happy. He’s like, next time, don’t waste my time. And I was like, that’s fair. Like, I won’t. But also, you should probably have accurate photos up, you know, like, I’m sorry. Yeah. So anyway, don’t lie. I’m not saying, like, don’t do that. Like, don’t do that, you know, But I was like, how do I. How do I say, like, so. Well, you just say it, I guess. You don’t look the way you do in your photos. And I’m sorry, but I don’t want to proceed.

[00:27:47] Michael DiIorio: Like, I would have just said, like, actually, it’s not a match for me here.

[00:27:50] Reno Johnston: There we go. Thank you, Michael. Yeah.

[00:27:53] Michael DiIorio: Which I think. I think a lot of us have been in that position, like, on the other side of it, I don’t know. Like, you. You think you’re going to get something, and it’s not what you quite get, or they thought you’re going to be.

[00:28:01] Reno Johnston: Something, and you definitely. I’ve had guys turn around and, like, walk out, you know, and it, like, literally see me turn around and walk out, and that’s okay. I’m like, listen, I get it, you know? Or they’ll say what you said. Yeah, sorry, it’s not going to work out. I’m like, okay, cool. You know, so. Works both ways. Yeah.

[00:28:18] Michael DiIorio: Has that happened to you, Matt?

[00:28:20] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. And that’s one of the reasons why I don’t do hookups anymore. Because I find that there’s so many factors that need to align for me to want to share my body with somebody, like, their smell. Like, you know, so I want to, like, give them a hug, go for coffee, like, feel into, like. Is there chemistry? But when it’s happened in the past, when I was doing hookups, I would just always say, you know what? This isn’t. I’m not feeling the chemistry that I need to feel to, you know, continue with this. And I’m. I always Whenever I’m like, letting somebody down, it’s like, it’s a we thing. Like, our connection doesn’t feel like it’s right. I won’t be like, it’s you, like you’re gross or things like that. It’s just like, you know, we’re. We’re not. Right. Because it’s. It’s true. We’re co creating a connection. Right. So it’s like if we’re not feeling a connection, it’s like it’s. It’s an us thing. Our energies aren’t connecting. That’s how I look at it anyway.

[00:29:08] Michael DiIorio: Right. Yeah. I could just think of some guys that would be like, I’m connected just fine. Thanks.

Yeah.

[00:29:14] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:29:15] Michael DiIorio: All right, let’s give our audience a chance to chime in here. I’m sure they’re jumping at the bit. So if you’re listening to us or watching us on YouTube, let us know in the comments. What have you learned about yourself through your own hookups or casual sex? Whatever. Whatever word you want to use here. Tell us. Tell us what you learned about yourself. Put that in the chat on YouTube. And if you’re listening to us on a podcast, you can feel free to put that in with your five star review on whatever podcast platform you’re listening to us on. And if you actually want to participate in this discussion with us and other people who listen to this podcast, you can do so. You can join us on the last Thursday of every month in the Gay Men’s Brotherhood Sharing Circles, where we give you guys a chance to share your own thoughts on your experiences that we talk about here. We also have our Connection Circles which happen on the second Thursday of the month. And these are smaller pods. We put you guys in breakout rooms of three, and you have about an hour or so to just talk amongst your pod mates, similar to the way me, Matt and Reno are doing here on the topics that we discuss here in the podcast. If you’re interested in these, please go to www.gaymensbrotherhood.com. or if you’re in the Facebook group, check out our event section 2 RSVP. If you don’t have Facebook, that’s okay. Get on our email list and we’ll email you the zoom links. All right, so yes, casual sex and hookup obviously provide many opportunities to learn about yourself. One of the things that you guys both talked about was this opportunity to communicate openly, express needs and set boundaries, and then I think, also respecting other people’s boundaries, as we’ve talked about and These are incredible valuable skills that as I said earlier, are transferable to other areas of your life. And that’s what we’re going through here. So the next question is, what best practices do you have that protect your well being when you are having casual hookups?

[00:30:57] Matt Landsiedel: If my hookups and my sexual repertoire has taught me what I desire and what I need in order to feel pleasure and arousal and I’m very grateful for those experiences, as I said. And they’ve, they’ve allowed me to create a note in my phone that has all the things that I like. It’s basically a paragraph and then bullet points, all these things. And when I start to develop trust for somebody, I’ll send that to them. I’ll be like, these are the things I enjoy. This is what I like. This is what gets me going. So I think, you know, if I were to engage in like casual hookups, I might not give them that full list, but I’ll pick a few things like you know, depending on that. So it’s like, you know, the whole thing around, like what are you into? Like that’s an important conversation to have. So I think I will always communicate my intentions and my desires beforehand because if I’m not, if I’m not, if I’m not communicating my intention, I’m not participating in the co creation of the experience, right. I think that’s really, really important to like share that. So there’s that piece I think that’s the most important for me. And then I always, I have like a cleansing thing or a cleansing practice for after I. And when I was hooking up, there’s a young living essential oil called Thieves and they have a spray and I would bring that with me and I would spray my mouth out every time after I would hook up with somebody because I didn’t want to like get like colds or flus or things like that. I’m a bit of a germaphobe so that was the best practice for my well being and my health and then cleansing my energy. So like smudging or I use energetic, commanding and different things and I’ll cleanse my energetic field because I’m a firm believer that when we have sex with somebody we’re not only sharing our DNA but we’re sharing our energetic field with that person. Our energetic fields are coming together and you know, when we leave that person and we’re going to have like parts of their energy in our energetic field. Right. And, and if you’re somebody that’s sensitive to energy, you’ll feel that. Right? You’ll feel the other person or I’ve had sex before where I’ve even a day after I can still smell them like, you know, in my nose, like I can still smell their scent. Right. So that’s just a sign that we’re really, we’re truly co creating like physical matter with this person. So all said and done, like that’s why I don’t do casual sex. I think it’s. Or hookups. I would say casual sex I would be open to. But the biggest thing to protect my wellbeing would be to assess chemistry beforehand. So it’s always like, hey, let’s go for a walk. I want to get to know you. I want to be able to like see you, see that you’re like whatever and then assess it from there. So slowing it down, I guess is a big piece of it for me.

[00:33:20] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, that’s a big piece. Especially if you’re meeting people on apps and you don’t have that, that ability to kind of suss out what they’re like in the moment.

[00:33:27] Reno Johnston: Yeah.

[00:33:28] Michael DiIorio: You know, as example, the dance floor is nice because you see them right there, you don’t, you know, you know you like it. But on an app you have no idea what you’re going to get.

[00:33:35] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. It’s funny that you just made me think of something I watched on YouTube. I think it was at the beginning of this week and there was like there was a serial killer in man or not a serial. A serial rapist in Manchester, UK and he had raped 207 guys and would bring them back to his apartment and then drug them and then rape them. And for some of them it was like up to like eight hours long. So it’s like, you know, when we talk about like protecting our well being, I think, you know, hookup. If you’re going to bring somebody into your house that you don’t know or you’re going to go to somebody’s house that you don’t know, like you don’t really know. And there’s these, you know, these are rare instances but they can still happen. Right. Where it’s being drugged and raped is not a pleasant thing to experience. So yeah, be careful.

[00:34:18] Michael DiIorio: Something I do when I’m here in Europe is I will send my friends the picture if I like, if it’s someone on Grindr or whatever app. And then like my location, like if you don’t hear from me in a couple hours, alert somebody.

[00:34:30] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, seriously get justice.

[00:34:33] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:34:34] Matt Landsiedel: If I’m dead Get just as to who he is.

[00:34:36] Michael DiIorio: This is his address, and this is who he is. All right, Reno, what do you do to protect your well being?

[00:34:41] Reno Johnston: Yeah, Matt, thank you for saying that. Yeah, I feel like that’s so. What you just said is so important. And Michael, I’ve done similar things where generally if something sus. I won’t like, I won’t engage. But if I’m still curious and it’s more just like I’m concerned, I will send location, you know, like, here’s the address I’m going to. Here’s some screenshots of the conversation. Here’s a picture of the person, you know, just to be safe. So I think that’s so important. I’m glad that we spoke to that, because as fun as this stuff can be, it can also be, you know, risky. Right. And that’s kind of the sexiness of it, but also like, it’s, you know, you never know. So, yeah, I would say for me, best practices, I mean, clarity and curiosity, you know, like, I engage in a bit of dialogue beforehand. Not in every case, though. Sometimes it’s short and I’m just like, my gut, my intuition isn’t telling me anything is off here. So, you know, we don’t need to dialogue so much. Something that’s really important for me to do for myself is like setting the space so that looks like I light candles and I put music on and I really make a space that I’m very comfortable being in. And I’m not saying it’s not for the other person as well, but I would say first and foremost, it is for me. And I’m super grateful that they also get to benefit from that cleansing as well, like before and after. So I will obviously, you know, shower and clean myself. All that fun stuff. And it’s interesting because I’m not in the practice of asking this, but I’m realizing it might actually be a value to communicate that. Like, hey, can you. Can you make sure that you’re, like, showered and, you know, breath is fresh and all of that fun stuff before you come through? Right. So I hadn’t thought of just asking for that as well, because you never know. I assume most people do. And generally speaking, that’s been my experience. But not in every case. You know, it’s like, wash your ass, brush your teeth, you know, or just like, you know, rinse with mouthwash. Because the teeth brushing thing is a bit tricky too. When you brush your teeth before you make out, you might like, open something up anyway, blah, blah, blah, Condoms. And I mean, it depends. Depends for me. They’re a must. Like I. They are always a must for me outside of romantic partnership. But I know that’s not the case for everyone and I think that that’s beautiful. Oh, Matt, you said something. And I don’t know, I feel weird about admitting this out loud, but I’m going to admit it anyway, I think, which is like I do after I hook up, like depending on the person, I will go and like have a shower or at least I’ll wash my dick. Like I’ll, I’ll go pee immediately after. Cuz I heard that that like, you know, is. Apparently it’s. It works in some capacity. So I’ll go pee like right after I have sex and then I’ll wash my dick. If not shower, maybe do a rinse, an oral rinse as well. I don’t know. I sit with whether that’s like. Oh, is that like you washing the shame off or something? No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think it’s just me being, Me being like safe, you know, me and me being kind of a germaphobe. Like, I don’t, I don’t think it’s that. You know, I think once upon a time it was like years ago, but now I think it’s just like me just being a germaphobe and being like a little bit paranoid, I guess, about contracting anything or whatever. I don’t know, we could talk about this.

[00:38:30] Michael DiIorio: I think it’s pretty common.

[00:38:31] Reno Johnston: Okay. Because I was like, am I just like an or something if it has.

[00:38:35] Michael DiIorio: Nothing to do the shame for me either. I’m just like, okay, good.

[00:38:39] Reno Johnston: This is good to know because I’ve never heard anyone else admit it. And I’m like, no, I’m not washing off the shame. I don’t care. Right.

[00:38:46] Michael DiIorio: So yeah, let us know in the comments, guys, if you guys do that too. So we got three of us. We can’t be the only three people.

[00:38:52] Reno Johnston: No, but yeah, I think that’s it so far.

[00:38:54] Michael DiIorio: Nice. Yeah, those are good.

[00:38:56] Reno Johnston: Yeah. What about you, Michael?

[00:38:58] Michael DiIorio: All right, so, well, the first thing that I want to talk about is the sexual health piece because I do have hookups and casual sex. And so part of sexual empowerment. All the men in my group know this. We talk about this. There’s a whole module dedicated to sexual health because it is very important part of sexual empowerment and sex positivity as well, is knowing the risks and educating yourself and practicing what I call safer sex. Not Necessarily safe sex, because there is no real safe sex, but safer sex. So for me, what that means is I’m on prep. I’ve got my doxy pep, which is doxycycline. You take that after a exposure and it reduces the risk of gonorrhea, chlamydia and syphilis to varying levels. I’m up to date on my Gardasil, which is an HPV vaccine. I’ve got my hepatitis vaccines, I’ve got my MPOX vaccines. On top of that, I get tested every three months. And yes, I still use condoms sometimes. Not all the time, but sometimes. So that is like the STI thing. That’s one of the biggest questions I get because I talk about sex a lot on my channel and people are like, aren’t you afraid of getting STIs? I get that question constantly. And I’m like, no, I’m not afraid of guess getting STIs. I realize it’s part of the risk. I do. I take steps to prevent them. And guess, like since doxy, at least for me, it’s worked really well. I have not had any STIs since doxy, since I’ve been on doxy. Now, it’s not a hundred percent, don’t make that think that it’s a hundred percent effective. It’s not. It’s like 80% for two of them and then 50% for one of them. So yeah, there’s that. I just wanted to mention that from the beginning, okay. With respect to my like mental and emotional wellbeing, as I said earlier, I struggled a lot with overdoing it with casual hookups and sex and using it as a way to feed my low self esteem and my loneliness, which by the way, didn’t work. So I, to kind of keep me true to myself, created some self reflection questions. So I’m going to share those with you guys. So get out notebooks if you guys like these kinds of reflection questions because they’re coming directly from my own notepad, okay? So the first question I ask myself as I’m going to do this is why am I seeking this experience? Okay? And I, I do this for like, for me. I call them good reasons and bad reasons. These are just for me, okay? By all means. This does not mean that they’re good and bad for you. But my good reasons are because it’s fun, because I want the adventure, or just because I’m really curious. I want to know this guy’s like, I want to see naked. I want to, I want to taste them, want to feel him. So those for me are my good reasons. Bad reasons for me are I want to escape some negative feeling. Procrastination. I’m using it as a way to procrastinate and not do the things I said I was going to do. Very guilty of that sometimes. Or just because I want to feel less lonely. Okay, that’s question one. Why am I seeking this experience? Question two. As I imagine what this is going to look like, how do I feel? My good reasons are I’m feeling excited and empowered. My bad reasons are I’m feeling obligated. Oh, I’ve, like, dedicated so much time chatting with him. And I said I would like, oh, I guess I have to do this. Like, that kind of feeling of obligation or pressure or afraid. And then the last one is tomorrow, when I look back on this, how am I gonna feel? Which is a really good one. If you are drinking, if you’re drinking.

[00:42:02] Matt Landsiedel: Do you say, yeah, yeah.

[00:42:04] Michael DiIorio: If you’re kind of doing this, then, you know, you. You’re under the influence of alcohol. I’ll ask myself, am I, like, how am I gonna feel about this tomorrow? Which actually has helped me. I’m like, oh, yeah, no, I’m not gonna flip it about this form. And I’ve. I’ve actually not done it. So it actually is pretty good. As long as you’re not too far gone on the alcohol. I guess that’s the caveat there. But obviously, if I can look back at this and be like, oh, yeah, I’m not gonna. I’m either not going to care, it’s be totally neutral, or I’ll be happy I did it. That’s the green light. If I feel like, oh, no, I’m going to regret this. I’m going to feel even more lonely, then I say, stop, don’t do it. Yeah, that’s it.

[00:42:36] Matt Landsiedel: I love that those are good and gives me, like, insight and clarity around that. I would say the loneliness piece would be gray for me because I think there are times when I feel lonely and I think it would be okay to seek out connection. But I would say maybe not perpetual loneliness. Like, if it’s like. If loneliness is a thing that you’re constantly feeling and your only way of approaching it would be to go for hookups, then it would be an issue that I think. I think we’re here to connect with each other. We’re here to make each other feel good and validate each other and you know what I mean? So there’s that component to It. But it’s a fine line. Like anything, you know, like if it can be anything in without moderation can become compulsive and problematic.

[00:43:16] Michael DiIorio: My flavor of that loneliness is what you had said where it was like a pain that I was thinking the hookup would make the loneliness go away, but it was not the kind of, I’m just lonely in this moment. It’s like a painful. Like I am feeling very lonely because of some heartbreak or because of something and I’m like, no, that’s not gonna make it go away. I just need to actually be lonely. That’s.

[00:43:35] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good clarification.

[00:43:38] Michael DiIorio: All right, so for those of you who have access to our coaching collection library, I was perusing through some videos that will allow you to go even deeper into this topic. And if you don’t have the coaching collection, go get it. It includes 45 videos, lessons from Matt Callan and I. It has our two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships. So if you are in there specifically, I want you to go to the relationships pathway and you can check out intro to non monogamous relationships, intro to attachment styles and the empowered single man. Watch those ones. After that you can go to the confidence pathway, confidence section there and check out Boundaries 101. It’s a good one. Creating a personalized self care routine and then discovering your sexual being. So those are six, six videos in the coaching collection that’ll help you. Okay. And as I said, if you don’t have the coaching collection, go out and get it. You have lifetime access. Once you have it, you have it for life. All right. Oh, yeah, you can go to. I should tell you where to get it. You go to www.gamingdeeper.com. okay, final question of the day. What advice would you give someone who wants to feel more empowered in their hookups?

[00:44:45] Matt Landsiedel: Well, do the exercise. Michael just took us through. Hopefully you’ll put those in the show notes. Cause those are perfect.

[00:44:51] Reno Johnston: Yeah.

[00:44:51] Matt Landsiedel: Because what my. What I wrote down was be aware of your needs. I think needs are the birthplace of empowerment. Truly, if you think about how human beings feel empowered, they understand their needs, they develop skills to communicate their needs, and they get their needs met and leads to empowerment. So understanding what you need, why you’re doing it, all of that I think is just so, so important.

And slow things down and listen to your body. Because I think if you’re a gay man and you’ve experienced trauma or you have a lot of shame, a trauma response can be dissociation. We disconnect from our bodies, and we’re very heady, and that’s where sexual compulsion lives. It’s like this mental or sex addiction. It’s. It’s. It’s a mental thing. We mentally are. Are relating to sex hookups through our mind. And I think we sometimes put our body in situations that it doesn’t want to be in. So the more we can connect with our body and our mind, right. We become embodied, which means mind and body working together, the more likely we are going to put ourselves in situations that feel good and empowering for us. So.

[00:45:52] Michael DiIorio: Well said.

[00:45:54] Matt Landsiedel: Simple.

[00:45:55] Reno Johnston: I want to clarify that my answer is, like, in conjunction with the other answers, your answers, because mine’s a little out there and it’s a little, like, cheeky, but. So I have an alter ego, and his name is Drama. Like, he’s just so much fun. And I think something I realized when I was first starting to explore my sexuality and really lean into it, my sensuality, a sort of other aspect of myself that I felt was really closetive is there was kind of this edginess to it. Like, this alter ego of mine showed himself even in the earlier stages of my. Let’s say, my childhood, you know? And so I guess what I’m wanting to communicate here is, like, you know, slow down and connect to this part of yourself that, like, wants to be expressed. And maybe, like, allow yourself to kind of tune into, like, what is beyond the shame. And, like, allow that part of yourself to come forward. Let the sexual part of yourself, the sort of, like, edgier parts of yourself, reveal themselves to you. And if it has a name, let it have a name and allow yourself to embody that energy. You know, be safe about it. Be mindful, be demure, you know. Just kidding. Don’t be demure. Be the opposite of that. But, yeah, like, have fun with it. I think that’s it. I just let myself be naughty, you know, I let myself be naughty and I let it overcome me in a way, and I allowed myself to explore it. So.

[00:47:35] Michael DiIorio: Yeah. Overcome you and come over you.

[00:47:37] Reno Johnston: Exactly that part. Yeah. Yeah. Because, listen, if you’re not comfortable, if it’s not comfortable, like, if it’s not comfortable being sexual, being Reno. Right. That’s worth exploring for sure. But, like, you know, if there’s another aspect of you explore it. Let it come over you. Let it, you know, let it move you and see where it takes you. It gets really fun and interesting.

[00:48:00] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, I love it. I mean, you guys kind of nailed it with all of that. I think you know, the only thing I would add is to echo. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. You can, as I said in the beginning, you can like it today and not tomorrow. Right. It could be something you want to do on this one day and then not the other. So just honor that and listen to that. You know, give yourself permission. Kind of what Reno was saying. Give yourself permission to play, like, one thing, you know, when I was talking about the shame piece, for me, like, if you just want to get tossed around like a rag doll, like, first of all, that’s totally okay. Or if you want to toss somebody else around like a ragdoll, get their consent, of course, and then that’s totally okay. So, like, honor that part within you that wants to have pleasure and desire consensually and, yeah, go out and get it, and it’s great and it’s fun. And if you don’t have fun and it’s not great, then that’s okay. Then don’t do it. Then you can do things another way. Either way, the whole point of this episode was to use these experiences a way to learn more about yourself. So what I love about this episode is that we. We all kind of took it in a bit of a different way. You know, Matt’s very different with his approach to connection, sexuality, and to Reno’s into mine. So I hope there was something here for everyone.

[00:49:03] Reno Johnston: Can I say one more thing?

[00:49:04] Michael DiIorio: Yeah.

[00:49:04] Reno Johnston: So I guess just to further reiterate what was said here and what I said, like, go there. Like, go there. Let your curiosity run rampant. Let your fantasies and your desires kind of run ra. Rampant. Let them allow yourself to kind of just entertain them, even. You don’t have to follow through on any of it, you know, and do so in the safest and most like, right for you way. But, like, this is an opportunity to have a bit of fun and discover yourself and explore things. And so, yeah, I don’t know. Like, fuck the shame. You know, just put it away for a sec. Shelf it. Shelf your shame. Go have a bit of fun and then, you know, revisit it. Yeah.

[00:49:53] Michael DiIorio: Well said. Any last words?

[00:49:55] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, maybe just to not judge others. Nice. Stay in your own lane. I always say that to my clients. Sustain your own lane. Like you. If somebody’s hooking up and they want that, like, just let them be and then let you be. And if, you know, you’re somebody that’s hooking up and you’re judging somebody who’s not hooking up for being prudish or whatever. Like, again, just stay in your own lane and let people live their life. We don’t know where they’re at in their journey. And maybe they’re in a place of wanting to experiment and self discover and let them be there. And maybe you’re at a place where you know what you want and you’re not. Right. Like we’re all at different places.

[00:50:26] Michael DiIorio: Very well said. We need a lot less judgment on all sides.

[00:50:29] Matt Landsiedel: On all sides, Exactly.

[00:50:31] Michael DiIorio: All right, awesome. Well, thank you, Matt. Thank you, Reno, for blending your so entertaining and so thoughtful as always experiences and vulnerability to the episode today. Thank you to our listeners and viewers for sticking with us for this hour and reminder, guys, that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we’re creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. We would deeply appreciate that you could also subscribe on Apple to the early access option to listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All of your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. So we thank you so, so much in advance. And don’t forget, we have some events coming up in the gay Men’s brotherhood, so make sure you sign up at gaymansbrotherhood.com

[00:51:18] Michael DiIorio: All right, guys, have a good one. Bye.