Gay and Asian: Panel Discussion

[00:00:02] Michael Diiorio: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men’s Brotherhood, where we talk about personal development, mental health, and sexuality. Today, I’m your host. My name is Michael Diiorio. I am a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships, and self-confidence.

And today I am super excited to be facilitating a panel discussion about being gay and Asian.

Even if you do not identify as such, I encourage you, I implore you to stick around for this conversation. I promise you’ll get an immense amount of value from this discussion.

Some of the things we’ll be covering today are, and since we haven’t had the discussion, I’m not quite sure where it will go, but I’m sure we’ll cover these things.

How your ethnicity influences your experience as a gay man.

We’ll be shining a light on stereotypes and discrimination in the gay community, and we’ll explore how we can become better allies in supporting marginalized members of the community.

This is an episode I’ve been wanting to do for a very, very, very long time, and I’m very thankful that to be joined today by these three fabulous and insightful guests, my panelists. I will introduce them briefly here, and then they’ll have a chance to speak more to themselves in just a sec.

So, we have JP Fernandez. He is an award-winning diversity, equity, inclusion, and reconciliation specialist with experience in the private, public, and nonprofit sectors.

Aldwin Era is an elementary school French teacher, dog daddy, amateur tennis and pickleball player, retired drag queen, and world traveler.

And finally, we have Jarrod Bruce Lee. He is the CEO and founder of the Daring Academy, where he helps gay men build their self-confidence and bodies from the inside out through fitness, nutrition, mindset, and healing work.

All right, thank you guys so much for joining. I am excited to start this. And before we jump into the panel discussion, really, this episode is about you guys. So I just want to say something quickly at the beginning, and then I’ll get into facilitation mode here.

So I said earlier that I wanted to do this episode for a long time, and it is really important to me because I think the concept of intersectionality is extremely important in our community and not talked about enough, I think.

And we do have a lot in common as LGBTQ people. Yes. But we have to remember that our experiences do differ based on things like race, cultural background, age, religion, socioeconomic status, where you live, or gender identity, and so on. So a lot of these factors completely change our experience of being gay in this community.

So the word intersectionality is really about acknowledging how various aspects of someone’s identity intersect and interact with each other. And so today, that focus is at the intersection of gay and Asian.

Okay, so let’s jump in first, let’s give the audience a chance to get to know our wonderful panelists. So I’ll give you guys just a few minutes to talk about yourselves, and we’ll start with JP.

[00:03:05] JP Fernandes: Thanks, Michael. Hey, folks. Such a pleasure to be here. Michael, thanks for having us. I feel like I’m excited to have this conversation with these two wonderful individuals.

I am a first generation south Asian man. I was actually born in India and migrated here with my family when I was two years old. So it’s interesting being a first generation Canadian, but yet not having the same immigrant experience that most people do, given I came here so young.

But, you know, growing up south Asian in a predominantly white community was really interesting. And then coming out queer specifically added a few more layers to that. But it certainly created a unique experience that I think a lot of folks probably resonate with in terms of who I am in my professional personal life.

I live downtown Toronto. I work in the equity space.

I’ve done a lot of that work in the nonprofit sector, really trying to make sure I understand my own identity and how it intersects with the work that I do and other people’s experience.

And so, really, I think a big part of the work that I do is about listening, hearing people’s stories, and using that to support individuals to success.

And I’m really proud of being able to do that work. It’s a gift, it’s a grace.

But I’m really happy to have this conversation with you all today. So thanks for having me, Michael.

[00:04:34] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, thank you, Jimmy. And do you identify as queer or gay, or does it? Or either one?

[00:04:39] JP Fernandes: I think I need to change between the two. I feel like more recently, I’ve really been saying queer a lot. I think that really resonates with me the most.

[00:04:46] Michael Diiorio: Okay, cool. Good to know. Thanks, JP. All right, Aldwin, over to you.

[00:04:51] Aldwin Era: Hi, guys.

[00:04:51] Aldwin Era: My name is Aldwin Era. Hi, JP. Hi, Jarrod. Nice to see you guys.

[00:04:56] Aldwin Era: Hi, Michael.

[00:04:59] Aldwin Era: A little bit about me, just like JP, I’m first generation. I was born in the Philippines, and I think it’s important to share as part of my story that I was born to a father that was a pro basketball player in the Philippines. So he had a lot of dreams for me, like hoop, Michael Jordan dreams for me, but I came out of the room with high heels on, so that was, you know, a huge surprise for him.

Similar to JP, I moved to Canada when I was seven. So, you know, in a predominantly white neighborhood. So that’s also kind of an important factor.

Currently, I’m a primary school teacher and I find that for myself, being gay and Asian, particularly as a teacher in the Toronto Catholic school board, can pose a bit of a predicament. But just being authentic and who I am and presenting myself as who I am with my kids, I think is important, especially in terms of visibility, which I know we’re going to talk about on today’s show. And I think that, after all, the only thing that you can really, truly be is just yourself. And that’s kind of the best gift that you can present to the world.

That’s a bit about me.

[00:06:16] Michael Diiorio: Beautiful. Thank you, Aldwin. All right, Jarrod.

[00:06:20] Aldwin Era: Yeah.

[00:06:20] JP Fernandes: Hi.

[00:06:21] Jarrod Bruce Lee: So I’m Jarrod Bruce Lee. I’m super excited to be here and it’s, well, having this conversation is really bringing up a lot of different feelings inside my heart.

But I grew up in. I was born in Taipei, Taiwan, and my family immigrated to Auckland, New Zealand when I was four.

And there were so many different experiences where before even being realizing I was gay, being in childhood, at school different, whether it was outright racism or just kind of more not in your face, but a lot of those experiences that have, I didn’t learn to heal them or to even look at them. I just shoved that away and I just. I believed that as truth for such a long time, until I was probably mid-twenties, was when I really started to own every part of myself.

Yeah. So I’m just excited to have this conversation and shine light and hear your stories, JP, Aldwin, and see what impact we can do here.

[00:07:31] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Jarrod. All right, thanks, guys. That’s great. Good start. So the first thing I want to talk about on this episode is specifically about discrimination. So we’ll start with JP for the first question. And can you speak to any specific challenges around discrimination that you faced within the gay community due specifically to being Asian?

[00:07:53] JP Fernandes: Yes.

[00:07:55] Michael Diiorio: Tell us. Tell us all about it.

[00:07:58] JP Fernandes: I think it’s important, I mean, to start things off, I think it’s important to maybe situate myself because I feel like, you know, this is my experience and I, you know, it’s not everyone’s experience.

And I think I sit with a lot of privilege given, as I mentioned, that I, despite being first generation, came here quite young. And so I don’t have an accent. I do dress and look sort of western presenting.

I understand western references, which is a lot of privilege that I feel like I embody, I come from a middle-class family. Those are all things that give me privilege in being able to navigate these spaces that I think are really important to note. I.

But, yeah, I think discrimination has been really real for me.

I think it starts off in, like, youth when you’re young and you’re sort of trying to understand who you are. And I grew up, as mentioned, in a predominantly white neighborhood. And so it was already, it began there. It began this experience of, oh, you smell like curry and go back to your country. These sorts of things that sort of come up.

I remember when I came out, I came out a little bit late. I was 26, and I was really excited. I thought I was going to go into the village and I was going to be like, welcome, welcome, newbie, come on. And that wasn’t my experience, unfortunately. Right. A lot of it was, oh, I’m not into brown guys. And it was often quite direct and no filter. And, you know, I think at that time, it was very much not taboo to say those types of things or put those types of things on people’s profiles. And so that was the introduction. I remember, you know, early on in those years, there was a local magazine that used to do an annual sex survey. And one year they thought it was brilliant. South Asians, most attractive race and South Asians sat right at the bottom of that list. And I remember laughing about it because I thought, what else can I do? But it doesn’t sting any less, right? And so I think that experience of just having people ask really dumb questions like, oh, so you must be a vegetarian or you must be Hindu or Muslim or what’s your real name?

Or why did your parents give you that name? It doesn’t resonate or it doesn’t align with your culture. I think are things that were a really big part of my experience.

And I think the biggest piece there is, it starts to become internalized. And so you start to believe some of those as truths and that you’re lesser valued or you’re less worth. And I remember going into spaces where there’s a lot of white men and feeling like I needed to prove myself, feeling like I needed to be validated in order to belong in that space. And that’s really hard to do when you’re coming into a space already not winning, already not belonging. And that was really, really hard. It still is. I think I still struggle with that on some level and have to really check myself and check my thoughts and check how I show up for myself in those spaces.

But it is quite real. I think it’s changing. I think there certainly is a lot more awareness.

I think people have the language to identify it now. But I think where there is still room is in how people embrace that information, internalize it for themselves and then put it back out into the world. I think people know how to talk about it. I don’t think people know how to action it quite yet. And so those are the pieces that I think like that’s been my experience so far. Um, again through my own lens, I think there’s folks that probably have a very different experience. But that’s where it sits for me.

[00:11:51] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. Thanks JP. Um, we’ll talk about some of that actioning later. Uh, but I want to end with that. And for our viewers and listeners, question for you. Um, I just thought of this and I’ll ask this to both you guys after as well. Um. How was it coming out to your family? How did they handle it?

[00:12:10] JP Fernandes: Yeah, so not easy.

My family’s very catholic. Like very catholic. And so I don’t think they knew what to do with it. Right. I think.

And they still don’t know what to do with it. It’s. I came out, I remember I had to go see a bishop. He told me I was going to hell. There was a whole slew of wonderful experiences that followed that. But I think what it did for me was allow me to really sit back and understand who I was and reconcile that with my faith and my community before I came out to them. Right. So I had to do a lot of work internally. So that with that experience of coming out to them, I knew it was going to be hard. It was hard.

But because of all that work, I think it was almost a blessing. I think I have a deeper understanding of myself that I probably wouldn’t have had if I just sort of like came out.

[00:13:05] Jarrod Bruce Lee: Yeah.

[00:13:06] Michael Diiorio: Thank you for sharing. And the reason I asked that question is because when I’ve worked with clients who are coming out and they are of a different race, doesn’t matter which one it is. But that’s always one of the things we have to consider is like what are the cultural values? If there’s religious values, like that has a big part to play, it’s easy to say, oh, we should all come out. But sometimes it’s actually not safe to do so. And you want to do that very carefully. Thank you. JP Alton, is there anything that you’d want to add about specific challenges you faced in the gay community?

[00:13:36] Aldwin Era: Yeah, I think in kind of like a converse effect. Like, there’s the whole idea of being fetishized. So very similar to JP, you have this experience as an immigrant and, like, you know, just to share a little story. You know, when you’re. When I was in elementary school, like, my mom wanted to pack me Filipino food. You know, she’s your mom. She cooks food for the weekend. She wants to pack you your regular Filipino food. And so, like, I remember one day on Monday, like, on a Monday, I opened my food, and, like, a. I opened my lunchbox, and a classmate was like, what is that smell? Like, that smells so gross. And I remember from that point forward, I asked my mom, like, can you please never, ever pack me Filipino food again? Like, I just want lunchables. Like, I just want bologna and cheese and crackers because I wanted to fit in. And, like, talking about intersectionality, it’s like that whole, like, I’m going to discard who I am. I’m going to discard my cultural identity because I want to fit in with what everyone else is having. And typically everyone else is white, right? So, you know, talking about, like, just discarding your cultural identity. Like, that started for me at a very young age.

But going back to the whole idea of fetishizing, you know, when I was growing up and I was trying to form my sexual identity as a gay man, a lot of the. A lot of the things that were presented on television, like, does anyone remember the show queer as folk?

[00:15:04] Michael Diiorio: Yes.

[00:15:05] Aldwin Era: So queerest folk was a huge, you know, it was huge for me because it was the first gay show, the first show that I saw on television that depicted what gay men did and what gay men’s lives look like. And, you know, when that is really one of the only kind of, you know, reference points for, you know, a 1314 year old boy, you start to adopt and. And, like, create your identity based on this perception of what this show is presenting. So I would, I would skip school, like, at 15 and 16, go down to the village. You know, here in Toronto, we used to have what were called the steps, the second cup steps, where you would just sit down and you would cruise. And oftentimes, you know, there would be these guys that would come. Come and pick me up. And I didn’t know it at the time, but they’re, you know, very opposite to the whole kind of, you know, survey that JP was talking about where southeast Asian men were kind of ranked at the very bottom. There’s also this group of fetishized, you know, Asian men, but they don’t look at us like human beings. They look at us as objects. And so, you know, I guess it has to do with, like, you know, western culture and dominating, you know, eastern culture and all of that. So I, from a very young age, understood that to some degree, I’m just an object. I’m just to be used. I’m not to be looked at as a human being. And it’s because of this whole kind of fetishizing perception that I experienced as a teenager.

[00:16:41] Michael Diiorio: Aldwin, can you tell the audience who might not know that word, what that means, fetishize?

[00:16:46] Aldwin Era: I mean, from my understanding, I think it’s when you have.

And maybe Jarrod and JP can help me with the definition of this. But you have this idea, like, I guess in the context of my example, you know, there were white men that looked at Asian men and only that particular trait and honed in on that. And because I presented as Asian, that was the only reason why they had any interest in me. So, I mean, that’s kind of my experience.

[00:17:18] Michael Diiorio: Like, it takes the humanity out of it, right? Like the fullness of you, right? Yeah. Right.

All right, thank you, Aldwin.

Jarrod, over to you. What discrimination have you faced in the community?

[00:17:32] Jarrod Bruce Lee: Yeah, this. Everything. JP, I don’t know. You guys are saying I can resonate with.

There’s a few things that started right. So starting from school at a young age, like UJP, I came here when I was four, five. So, you know, I’ve learned I was laughing. My accent at the time, I didn’t know the language, but very quickly being out of age, I picked it up.

I still remember being age nine and there’s a group of boys and all white, and me wanting to be a part of this group. And it was only until I think I had a.

Because I look different. I wasn’t. I didn’t belong. It wasn’t until one day when I had brought this bubble gum to school and one of the boys was like, hey, what is that? And I get one of those pieces to him. And then I was like, oh, that’s amazing. And they shared with other guys. And then suddenly I was part of this group. I became friends with these guys.

But what I noticed all these different experiences and being laughed for food as well. My mom would bring these Chinese food and people say, oh, that smells gross. That’s disgusting. And I come home and mom, oh, this. I hate this food. I didn’t. It’s just because I didn’t belong. So I said, hey, I hate this food. Bring me. Why can’t I have what everyone else is having?

And I remember starting from that age, right? There’s this feeling of the more I can sound white, the more I can morph myself to fit in, the better I was. And when people said to me things like, hey, Jarrod, you’re like different from the other Asian kids, I was like, yes, I’m like, winning. I’m winning here. Only until later, I’m like, no, that’s bullshit. That’s not winning. But at that age, that’s all I knew.

And then age, starting from the dating thing, I started pretty young. I was 16. I went online on dating.

All those experiences started, whether it was blatantly on dating profiles. This is called New Zealand dating. Not into Asians. All that sort of stuff.

Sending messages, not getting anything back.

I’m sure that’s, you know, that can happen to everyone, but sometimes it’s just, hey, not ad Asians. And it’s straight into your face there.

And I remember all that combined, right? I wanted so much just to make myself different, make myself better, even the fitness out of things. Michael had this whole discussion before, right, about the fitness and getting in better shape in my early twenties.

Changed the dating scene for me, but ultimately didn’t feel good.

Or big guys saying, hey, like, you’re pretty hot for an Asian.

Hey, why? You are. But like, you’re, you’re Asian. Oh, yeah, I don’t usually date Asians. I’m not into. And that’s at the moment when I was early twenties, low self-esteem. That was great. I was like, hey, this is a massive confidence boost because I’m better. But that’s bullshit. Again, bullshit.

It was only until later on. I started to talk about that later, but uncover and just heal all that stuff that does not belong. So this is why I’m so grateful to be here and have this conversation. Because all that subconscious stuff that just seeps in the.

It’s still there and you just gotta deload. Deload.

It doesn’t just disappear. Yeah.

[00:21:08] Aldwin Era: You know, I really, I really do empathize with what Jarrod is sharing. I think that when you’re, you know, a person of Asian descent, particularly in the gay culture. And again, we’re gonna, I know we’re gonna talk about this, but the whole idea of visibility, you know, I remember very similar to Jarrod, like, guys wouldn’t even look at me just because I was Asian. Guys wouldn’t even. I would walk into a bar and I would be with a bunch of my white friends and they would get all of the quote unquote attention. And I would just be kind of like, you know, the funny. The funny friend that was hanging out with the rest of the guys, right? And it’s such a shame that we, as gay Asian men, have to.

We feel like we have to do things like go to the gym, and I fit a physical standard just so that we can be looked at. And so I really did. That resonated with me a lot, Jarrod, that, you know, we feel like we have to overcompensate because we don’t even have our foot in the door, and that can be extremely frustrating. I know it’s not a lot of gay Asian men’s experiences, but it definitely has been mine. And I know it has been a lot of my other gay Asian male friends.

[00:22:18] Michael Diiorio: You guys have all talked a little bit about, um, this concept of being, like, the only Asian kid in, like, a greater group of. Of white friends, right? And I think a lot of that has to do with representation, which is what I want to talk about next. I think it’s a really good segue because, I mean, growing up, I’m queer as folk. Good example, Aldwin. Also, for me, that was kind of my first imagery of gay gay men on television. And then further after that, will and grace. As far as I recall, there were no people of color at all on either of those shows. What are your thoughts on the representation of gay Asian men in the media and culture? We spoke about it a bit in the past, so definitely speak more to that. And then what about now, in 2024?

[00:22:59] Aldwin Era: Yeah, you know, I. I guess in preparation for this podcast, you know, because I’m being Filipino, I’m more interested in, like, what the representation for Filipino men look like. Gay Asian Filipino gay Filipino men in the media has been. I remember there was an actor named Alec Mapa. He had a bunch of small roles in, like, ugly Betty. I think he was in will and grace. And I remember seeing him on tv as a teenager. I’m like, that guy’s gay, and he’s Filipino. And I thought that was so cool, you know, just to have someone that looked like me be, you know, have reached this level of being kind of broadcast across television screens across the world, which was really, really cool, you know? And, I mean, other than him, I don’t remember a lot of gay Asian men taking kind of, like, a center stage role on television. I know, like, you know, in shows like RuPaul’s Drag Race, because Filipino guys love to do drag. Like, gay Filipino guys love to do drag. There have been a few, you know, personalities on RuPaul’s drag race, but, I mean, I think to today, if there’s any kind of indication that there’s been more visibility and more representation, there was a movie that came out two years ago called Fire Island.

Joel Kim, booster. He’s a screenwriter. Bowen Yang, who’s on SNL. It was predominantly, like, all.

Most of the primary characters were gay and Asian. And I thought that that was really cool. And to set it in Fire Island, which is, you know, it’s like a party destination for a lot of gay men in the summer in New York, like, to have it there and kind of, like, reclaim that and have gay Asian men as the central figures in this story, I think is really cool. And I think we need to have more of that representation, to be honest.

[00:24:54] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, I completely agree. We’ve talked about that on lots of different ways, not just with race, but just body types and age and everything in the gay community. Um, JP, curious to know for you on this topic. Do you think that that lack of representation in those, you know, earlier days when we were first coming out influenced and impacted the fact that, um, maybe white guys or other. Other guys thought, you know, no Asians, not attracted to Asian guys, not into Asian guys. Do you think there’s a link there?

[00:25:27] JP Fernandes: Oh, absolutely. I think, you know, I don’t think we can pretend as though our desires and what we are drawn to is solely influenced by our own thoughts. I think there’s a clear correlation between what’s put out in the world versus what we’re drawn to.

I think an important part of this conversation, though, Asian is a broad term, and it has a multiplicity of identities.

I say that because my experience has been when people are talking about Asian, they’re often referring to east Asian and not south Asian. And so, you know, there’s a real. There’s a really important distinction there, because when you’re talking about representation, again, we’re often talking about representation of east Asian folks. Like, I can’t really think of anyone who’s south Asian in media.

I mean, there’s Dev Patel. And I remember there was a guy that I met, and he thought it was a great idea to call me Dev Patel for a good year and a half because that was the only south Asian person he knew. And I think there needs to be more. There needs to be a broader understanding of what representation looks like, because, as Alden mentioned, I. There aren’t a lot of Filipino Asian men on. In media. There aren’t a lot of, you know, Thai Asian men, like, you know what I mean? When you start breaking it down, that sort of distinction, representation really, really matters.

So, yeah, I think, you know, yes, representation matters. I think the way that we’re depicted, even when we are represented, is also really important. Like, if you think about how south Asian men are often represented in movies and tv, it’s the newcomer, it’s the guy that wobbles his head, it’s the guy with the accent that sort of does funny things.

It’s not often a western version of a south Asian man. And so there’s almost a mockery of what it means to be South Asian.

So, yeah, I think we need to evolve that a little bit.

[00:27:44] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, very well said. Thank you so much for making that point about that. Asian is a very broad term.

You are but three very awesome people that are sharing your experiences. I love that. And I think what this does is it gives people a chance to hear diverse perspectives, which is the whole point of this. But yes, JP makes a very good point that not everyone’s experience is the same, even just as Asian men. Clearly, as we can see here, see and hear, hear, your experiences have a bit different. And that applies to everyone. Everyone’s experience is unique. But I hope, though, that we can find some commonality. And I hope that some of what you guys are sharing here helps to validate and make others feel a little bit more seen and heard.

Yeah. Jarrod, you want to add anything on the topic of visibility and representation?

[00:28:32] Jarrod Bruce Lee: Yeah, totally. Hear what you’re saying there, JP. It is Korean, Thai, South, as Indian. There’s so many different Asian.

When I was younger in social media representation. Absolutely. I was called Jackie Chan, or funnily enough, Bruce Lee. Those are the things like, hey, Jackie Chan, Kung Fu, you know, because that’s what that was all on tv at the time.

And what I’m noticing there is a tide is, you know, there’s definitely changes. Growing up now is very different too, if we’re growing, growing up, you know, ten years, 20 years ago, 20 years ago.

But there needs to be more.

A big part of my driving force. I feel at some stage when I turn that corner, my mid-twenties, Washington, let’s help make more different types of Asian men be seen in a desirable light, but not in a fetishized way, but just like, hey, yeah, Asian men are sexy, they’re hot, and that’s awesome.

And the more we can do that with awe across the board, right?

And not with some bobblehead kung fu being the main thing, then it’s going to create a. Being a young five, six, seven-year-old, you get easily influenced. If you can see someone, go, oh, wow, this guy’s awesome. I want to be like him.

That gives you something to like. Yeah, I’m excited for.

And if I had that when I was younger, I believe, can’t say for certain, I probably wouldn’t have tried so hard to shove away that being an Asian being my ethnicity.

[00:30:20] Aldwin Era: I was. I was just going to ask. I know, Jarrod, you just said, like, you know, we need more. More gay Asian men other than, like, you know, Jackie Chan and kung fu. But wasn’t there recently a Marvel movie that came out where. What’s the name of that actor who got. Do you guys remember?

[00:30:37] Jarrod Bruce Lee: He’s like, Simu.

[00:30:40] Aldwin Era: Yes. Silu. Is that his name?

[00:30:42] Jarrod Bruce Lee: I don’t know the exact pronunciation. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:30:46] Aldwin Era: Okay. Forgive me if I butcher his name, but I think that that’s a. Right. Like, that is so cool that the central figure in a multi-million dollar, you know, movie chain decided to cast an Asian actor as their Marvel hero. Like, that is really.

[00:31:07] Jarrod Bruce Lee: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:10] Michael Diiorio: Do you guys think that we are. I mean, I personally think that we’re improving on that, but I’m curious to know if you agree, if it’s improving and if it’s improving at a pace that you think is fast enough, where there’s enough happening.

[00:31:24] JP Fernandes: I mean, I think the dials.

I think the door is open for the conversation is what I think it is.

When we’re talking about representation in media, let’s not pretend like film studios and these companies are really concerned about what representation looks like. They’re more interested in bottom line and what’s going to drive sales and money. Right. Like, I think that is what is. What is driving these conversations.

And I think about, like, you know, these big brands that really sort of push diversity. Like, you think of some of these, like, makeup brands, you’re like, love your body, love your skin, love your identity. And yet those are the same companies that are in Asia selling skin whitening creams. Right. And so I think when it comes down to it, money is what drives this. But also, so I think there’s a responsibility on us as consumers to demand more change. But as I said, I think the door is open for the conversation in a way that it hasn’t been before.

And so there’s an opportunity. I don’t know that I see it moving forward exponentially, but I see the opportunity for the conversation.

[00:32:39] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. And I see you, JP, and this is very much what you do in your professional life. So thank you for sharing.

Okay, guys, I want to flip it a bit and personalize it a bit. So, yes, we’re talking about being gay and Asian, but at the end of the day, we’re also talking about our culture here, right? So, for our viewers and listeners listening to this, I want you to think of your culture, whatever, whatever you, culture you were brought up in. So, for me, it was Italian. And I talk about this a lot on the podcast, how my Italian culture and heritage kind of shapes how I am as a gay man. And there are some things that are not so great that have not been useful for me, but there have been some traditions that I love and that have been very useful to me. And I think back to the story you guys told about how you didn’t want to have, you know, the food at lunchtime with all the. With all the other white kids, right? Like, what’s the opposite of that? So my question here is, are there any specific cultural traditions or practices from your heritage that have actually enriched or supported your experience as a gay man? And for this one, let’s start with Jarrod.

[00:33:40] Jarrod Bruce Lee: I feel today, at this moment, now, or even for the last three, four years, the more I’ve embraced my identity, that’s catapulted. Health, things.

It can be.

It’s a plus.

It’s just that perspective shift of going, you know what? I’m gonna love the heck out of everything and allow this to be okay.

And more than enough. More than okay. That’s being powerful. I don’t know if there’s anything specific that I, being Taiwanese, but I guess this leads on to later down the conversation, right? Is the more examples in the world that we.

I can be for myself. Like, hey, if I can love, embrace all this, it can help other people maybe, who are afraid to do that, to do more of it. I can’t think of anything really specific right now. Oh, actually, there’s one thing I saw just the other day. So, Taiwanese, one RuPaul drag race. I don’t follow it. I was like, yes, that’s awesome.

So that was exciting.

[00:34:48] Michael Diiorio: I was actually just thinking of that. Jarrod, I don’t know too, too much about Taiwan, granted, but, like, after watching drag race, I don’t know. I don’t know if her representation was accurate, but it was just beautiful. She did many looks that were actually, she said, were a testament to her heritage, so. All right, Aldwin, how about you?

[00:35:05] Aldwin Era: Oh, God. Where to start? Okay, so, you know, as a kid, the whole, like, rejection of my Filipino. My Filipino culture. Like, as an adult, I probably seen the last five or six. Five or six years, I’ve been really adamant about, like, embracing my Filipino culture, particularly among my gay friends. So, you know, I’ve invited a couple of, you know, a few close gay friends to my, to my place, and I make them Filipino food. You know, like, it. One day, it would be so nice with my partner to make what we call Lumpia. So Lumpia is like our version of spring rolls. So, you know, you have your ground beef and you’ve got your chicken, you’ve got your carrots, and then you wrap them, and then you. You deep fry them. Like, that’s something that I kind of liken to making pasta, maybe in the Italian culture. Like, that whole sense of, like, making a meal in community, whether it’s with a partner, with. Whether it’s with a couple of friends, you know, I really embraced that part of the Filipino culture. Like, in January, I had a few friends over, and I made them chicken Afritada. And, yeah, I mean, like, just sharing. Just sharing food that I grew up with, like, home comfort food that my mom used to make when I was a kid with people that are very near and dear to my heart is something that’s really enhanced my gay relationships as an adult.

[00:36:30] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, that’s beautiful. I would love to taste all of these things.

[00:36:33] Aldwin Era: I know.

[00:36:33] Aldwin Era: I made.

[00:36:35] Aldwin Era: I made you salmon the last time. You’re over. I should make you.

[00:36:37] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, I’m down for the. What are they called? Lumpia.

[00:36:42] Aldwin Era: Lumpia.

[00:36:43] Michael Diiorio: Lumpia, yeah. Sounds delicious.

All right, JP, how about you?

[00:36:48] JP Fernandes: Thanks, Alvin. I think the food piece is so true. And I’ll take an order of Pancit, please. Thank you.

While we’re on it, I feel like I need to add context to this conversation from my experience, because the part of India that I’m from is called Goa and was a Portuguese colony. And there’s a story that gets told in Goa that that state was made better by the Portuguese, and it’s still told today.

It’s a story that says, the Portuguese gave us, like, organization.

They came in and they made the. They made the, you know, the buildings beautiful.

They gave us culture and, like, made us more western. So we weren’t sort of these backwards Indian people almost.

And so I think that is the lens that I had viewed my Indian identity. And so when I think of this question around what was enriched, I think of sort of the unique culture that comes from Goa specifically. And, listen, I’m proud to be from Goa. It’s a beautiful state. I love so much about it. But I think the story of it is about assimilation. It’s about code switching so you can fit in.

And that was my experience when I came to Canada. I think my parents were so used to that experience of sort of trying to be as western as you can, that I don’t think there was really an opportunity to embrace the trueness of our culture.

I was saying to you folks before, I just went to India a few weeks ago, and I had a really powerful experience of being in a space with predominantly south Asian people. It was all brown people eating brown people food. And, you know, being in this village, everyone knew my family, everyone knew the history of my family. And I started to see the power in that community. And I think that that is something that I am now learning to take away. Way is the power and community that we are, you know, as many other cultures, a culture, a community of people that are survivors, that we have worked our asses off. And, you know, I think it’s Maya Angela that says, we are our ancestors’ greatest dreams. I’m seeing that now. I see what that means to exist in Canada as a south Asian man and the history that came before it. Right. I think that is something that really. I am now starting to embrace and realize in a new way.

But I think, you know, to go back to the question, something that I think is really a core practice is community.

We always had family around. We always, you know, every Friday night, my family would go to one of our family’s houses for rice, curry and fish. And it was a community practice. And that is how, you know, we stayed grounded. And I think I. That is something that I’ve carried forward in my relationships with my friends and chosen families. So I think that’s something that I would say is something I carry forward.

[00:40:00] Michael Diiorio: I love that answer. And it’s such a great segue, because that word community, I use the word gay community quite a bit in everything I do. And so many people have a hard time with that word because they say there’s nothing about our being gay that is a community. Maybe in the past we had that when we were struggling with, you know, our rights, um, HIV and AIDS and all that, and equality back in the. At least in the US and Canada back in the sixties and seventies. But what I hear these days is that we’ve lost a lot of that sense of camaraderie, connection, having each other’s back, standing up for each other. I’m not sure whether that’s true or not? Cause all I know is my experience. But one of the things that I want to do with my own business, with this podcast, with the Gay Men’s Brotherhood, is really start to bring back that sense of community. Um, and what that looks like now. So, great segue for our final question, which would be, how can we do better as a community, as a gay community, to address these issues of intersectionality? And let’s start with.

Someone looks scared.

Let’s start with JP.

[00:41:07] JP Fernandes: Yeah, I think it’s sort of a continuation, I think recognizing that we’re a collective, you know? And I don’t think this is specific necessarily to the queer community. I think the queer community has really embraced this idea of individualism. There is, like, there’s been a movement around the wellness culture that you are your own savior. And, I mean, there’s something between, you know, that’s. There’s a line between accountability and the duty for community to lift you up and make you whole. Right. I think if we understand that we’re a community, we’re a collective, I think that’s a great starting place because then it requires us to think of someone else first and the experience of someone else first. And I think that’s really important.

It can’t always be about our needs, and it can’t always be about us moving ourselves forward. And I think that’s really important in any type of equity work. Right? Like, you can’t center yourself in it. You have to center someone else around you. Um, I think of, like, when we’re in an election time, I always say to people, like, think of the person that is most marginalized in your life, in your community, and vote for them. And I think if we were to take actions in our lives that reflect that, I think we would be a lot further along.

And I also think about, like, to break it down a little further. Like, in our south Asian community, you know, let’s be real. We’ve internalized so many of these stereotypes, so many of these, like, tropes about who we are and how we’re valued, and then we play them out on each other. Right? There’s like, this hierarchy in the community that exists that I think goes unspoken of, that we need to break down ourselves and honor ourselves, honor each other, bring each other up. And I think that means we have to deconstruct our own shit. But it’s work. And I think we need to be able to take a moment to step back and say, what. What am I bringing to the table? And how is it tainting the experience of the people around me. And how do I create more opportunity for collective, more opportunity for community, more opportunity for care.

And if we lead with compassion, if we lead with care, I think we be a lot further along. But. Sorry, that’s a long answer, but, yeah.

[00:43:23] Michael Diiorio: That’s a great answer. I’m not sure if you meant it in the same way, but when you say hierarchy, the way that I apply it in the gay community that I see is hierarchy of whether we, a lot of people don’t even, wouldn’t even acknowledge us. But what I see is young, fit, white, masculine, amazing air quotes, presenting men at the top of that hierarchy and then everybody else. Right? Is that similar to what you’re talking about, JP?

[00:43:49] JP Fernandes: Yeah, absolutely. But also, even between cultures and even between, like, within an all speech to south Asian culture. Within the south Asian culture community, right. It’s like newcomer versus non newcomer. It’s like there’s all these, I mean, there’s all these little pieces that sort of factor in. And I don’t know if I can break it down in a really articulate way, but it exists and it’s there for us to. I mean, I think we need to shine a light on it and be more cognizant of it.

[00:44:17] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Jarrod, what are your thoughts? How can we do better as a community?

[00:44:22] Jarrod Bruce Lee: So many thoughts there. And, yeah, I’m back. JP, thank you for sharing that shining light for some things for me here.

When I start to get into kind of the macro and all that, I can start to feel a little bit overwhelmed.

I take on feelings very quickly.

I’m very sensitive.

How I see it is. The more every single one of us can learn, and obviously opportunity, it takes this privilege here, right? But the opportunity to learn, to heal and to deconstruct and let go of all that for ourselves, it has a massive impact.

What I mean by this, right? Let’s say if I didn’t do all this healing work that I’ve done, I would be walking out around the world like a shithead, being like, yeah, I’m fitness, I’m like, I’m better. All that, all the bullshit I carry. But because I looked within. But okay, this is not, I don’t like this. I don’t think this is actually serving myself or the world. Deconstruct all of those healing, the more I’ve done that. And even having this conversation here together, it shifts things. It shifts things.

That’s my answer there. I don’t know. In terms of a community bigger scale sort of input, but from us looking within.

[00:45:49] Michael Diiorio: Thank you. Jarrod. Aldwin, do you feel ready to answer now?

[00:45:53] Aldwin Era: Oh, my God. I feel like it’s like Miss Universe. Like, I have 60 seconds to give you Miss Universe winning answer.

I do want to share a personal anecdote that JP’s answer really brought to my memory.

So when I first met Michael, and honestly, when I first met JPE, like, about ten years ago, I was playing dodgeball, gay dodgeball. And I remember that when I was playing, it was dodgeball Monday, if I’m not mistaken, and I had made friends with. They will remain nameless with a couple of white guys. And again, within the community, these white guys would have been perceived as, like, you know, you’re very attractive, muscular, that kind of thing. And I remember I went to a tennis party one weekend, and I was with a couple of Filipino gay friends from the gay tennis community, and they had seen pictures I posted on Instagram of a Friday night, a random Friday night where I was with these other guys from dodgeball. And one of my friends said to me, he said, you know, you really made it. You made it. And I’m like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. He’s like, you are now friends with these hot white guys. Like, that’s kind of the, you know, that’s the be all and end off. You’re a gay Asian male. That’s your. That’s like. That’s like the. The top prize, I guess you could say. And I remember hearing him say that and kind of sitting back, and I’m like, that’s actually so gross. That’s so gross. And it really opened up an internal dialogue and personal discussion around, why am I seeking validation by being friends with these kinds of people? And a dialogue around, you know, can be a very sensitive subject around, like, self-hatred. Right? So thank you, JP, for sharing that. I think that when it comes to personal responsibility, that’s something that, as, you know, gay Asian males, if that happens to be your experience, something that we all take a responsibility in looking into for ourselves.

But to answer Michael’s last question about what we can do as a community, to, I guess, to increase sensitivity and inclusion, it’s to offer more spaces for celebrating gay Asian Mendez, in whatever capacity that is. I mean, I was just talking to my friend Russell, who lives in Montreal. I used to be, you know, tennis partners with him, and I was like, what was the name of that party that we used to go to in the West End? He’s like, oh, that was. Yes, yes, y’all. Which typically is like a hip hop r and b party where many people of color, you know, black, Asian, Latinx, come and they just grind and have a good time, you know, and that when we have parties and spaces like that, where there is truly a sense of belonging and truly a sense of visibility, then, you know, these kids that are coming up, these southeast Asian, these gay Asian kids are coming up and, you know, entering our community and building experience and building identity, they can find spaces where they feel validated. And, I mean, that’s a separate discussion. Like, external validation is a separate discussion. But let’s be honest. Like, it is a nice feeling when you are being seen for who you are. And if we can offer more spaces like that, more opportunities to be seen like that, I think that’s just going to be these knees.

[00:49:37] Michael Diiorio: I love that. And for all the people who are white like me, go to those events because they’re a lot of loud and fun. Attend, participate, expose yourself to different cultures, different music. Like, it’s. It’s. It’s such an enriching experience. And not only that, but it creates more empathy, more understanding in general. Yeah.

All right, guys, we are towards the very end of our show here today. It flew by. So before I wrap up, I just want to pass it to each of you for any final thoughts or parting words you’d like to share. And let’s start with JP.

[00:50:11] JP Fernandes: I wasn’t ready for that, but I’ve heard this.

I mean, final thought. First off, I’m really glad we had the conversation. Right. I think it’s important to be able to just say what our experience is, knowing that it’s our experiences, not everyone else’s. I’m sure there are some folks who will have a very different experience, but I think it’s important to note that we’re not any one thing. And I think, you know, so many of us come to the table with so many facets of our identity that impact the way that we engage the world, see the world, experience the world. And those are just as important. And so I think we need to find an opportunity to honor ourselves in all of those spaces.

I think it’s a gift to be able to have these conversations. It’s a gift to be able to, like, have other Asian folks and white folks come to the table. And Michael, you said something that really resonated with me.

For those of us who sit in privilege, there is an obligation to us to show up for those who don’t. And I think that that is really important. And so I think my final closing is stealing from you a little bit and saying, what is my obligation to other voices who haven’t been heard? Right, to the South Asian person who’s a newcomer or a trans person or, you know, is of lower socioeconomic status or all of those things. All those things factor into how we come into queer spaces. And so how do I make sure that those voices are present, that spaces are created for them, that I’m creating space that welcomes them? And so, you know, as much as I want to go into a space and be welcomed, what’s my duty to ensure that that is the experience for someone else?

[00:51:55] Michael Diiorio: Very well said. Thank you, JP.

Jarrod, how about you? Any final thoughts?

[00:52:03] Jarrod Bruce Lee: If you feel you’re not enough because of everything you’ve experienced, firstly, I’m so sorry that you have gone through what you have.

I know how painful it can feel, but I want you to know that you can use those experiences as a strengthen. You’ve come so far to wherever you are right now. You’ve gotten to this point in your life, and you can use that. Use that. Don’t let all that stuff deter you.

Those aren’t weaknesses. They’re not shame things to be ashamed of. They’re things you can love and embrace.

[00:52:42] Michael Diiorio: Beautifully said. Thank you. Jarrod. Actually, reminds me of something that I actually, yeah. Ultimate spin in my men’s group. Um, the very first lesson in my men’s group called shamelessly gay men’s group is minority stress. And what we talk about is how being a minority, take your pick of which one you, you want to choose from. But either way, being apart from the mainstream, the main group, at a young age, we create a lot of stories about what that means. And so it’s really, really important. What you had said there, Jarrod, that for a lot of people, it could be a easy way to tell the story of I’m not enough, I’m not good enough, I’m not blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever your enough is. And so it’s really important to do the work to. You can change that. You can change that story. It doesn’t, it doesn’t happen overnight, of course, but it does take time, and it helps to have these kinds of conversations. So thank you for talking about that.

Aldwin, final thoughts.

[00:53:41] Aldwin Era: I think it’s safe to say that as gay men, we struggle with enoughness, right? Like, we grow up and we’re. We automatically presume ourselves to not be enough because society, our families, reject us. For many, for many of us. And when you cross section that with being Asian in the gay community, it can really make you feel like you are the last spot in the survey. Right. And I really love what JP said around ancestry, and it’s something that I’ve reclaimed for myself in my forties as a gay Filipino man. It’s this. It’s this idea that whenever I don’t feel enough, I take a quiet moment to myself and think about the generations and generations of Filipino men and women that have struggled. Struggle and have created my current existence. All of the hard work that they’ve put in, most recently, my parents immigrating from the Philippines to North America to provide this life that I’m living. And that is really the privilege that I have today. So for any gay Asian man that has moments where they feel like they’re not enough, I find that that’s a good. You know, that’s something that you can reflect on of all the generations of whatever Asian ethnicity you are of people that have struggled to get to where you are today. And I think that’s just amazing when you really think about that, right?

[00:55:30] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. And I think that there’s a lot of people out there who struggle with this not enoughness and the shame, inadequacy, all the things we want to say. And there’s so many reasons for it, so many reasons why we can do that. But again, having these conversations, I can’t stress this enough helps. And bringing that into the light helps to remove a lot of that power around shame. And that not enough story, because we realize, oh, wait, you feel that way, too, or you had that similar experience. Even if it’s not the same experience, what’s similar is the feeling. The feeling of shame, inadequacy, fear, all those things. Self-doubt. We all experience it in our own way. And, yes, that is unique. And maybe our story is a bit unique, sure. But the common humanity is that we feel that way. And so when we can look at one, on the one hand, we want to. I think this is my personal opinion, we want to honor that unique story, but on the other hand, we want to find that common humanity as well. It’s a delicate balance.

Okay, guys, we are at time. I want to thank you. Thank you, JP. Thank you, Aldwin. Thank you, Jarrod.

Thank you for coming on today, sharing your experiences and insights with our viewers and listeners. I know that some of them will probably want to contact you, and so I will put your info in the show notes. So for the viewers and listeners, you can contact these wonderful men there.

And for those of you, viewers and listeners who do want to share your own comments and share your own stories, you’re welcome to do so. These episodes are on YouTube. So if you’re watching us on YouTube, go ahead and leave your comments there. Tell us what your experience was like. Tell us what you think. We’d love to read your comments. Um, and then if you’re listening to us on the podcast, that’s fine, too. You can leave a rating and review there. In fact, your ratings and reviews do help us get into the eyes and ears of people who need us the most. And by the way, if you are on YouTube while you’re there, go ahead and subscribe and hit the bell. If you haven’t already, these podcasts get released every Thursday.

And speaking to connection, the Gay Men’s Brotherhood offers connection circles and sharing circles. There are two events each month and, well, I guess technically three. And it gives you guys an opportunity to come to the table and talk about whatever we talk about here on the podcast. So if you’re interested in joining those events, please make sure you’re on our mailing list or join us in the Facebook community and RSVP on the events there. All right, guys, thank you so much for your time today, and we’ll see you next time. Have a good one. Bye.