Building Trust in Relationships

[00:00:01] Matt Landsiedel: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men’s Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Landsiedel, and joining me today, as always, is Michael DiIorio. Welcome. Today we’re talking about “Building Trust in Relationships”, and we’re going to be exploring questions like, what makes it hard for you to build trust in relationships? What is required for you to build trust with someone? And have you ever had your trust broken? And what did it take for you to rebuild that trust? So what we want you, the listener, and viewer, to get out of today’s episode is more clarity around many barriers you have to trusting people, as well as what may be required for you to trust with someone, to build trust with someone. Also, what you can do to start to repair trust if it’s been broken in a relationship that you’re in. If you’re new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe. Leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. All right, so essentially I chose this episode because of my own trust issues and wanting to unpack this. I’ve had trust issues in my relationships for a long time, and I also see trust issues in our community. And I think it’s important to have this conversation on where this comes from, where these trust issues come from, and what we can do about them so we can. Again, the whole vision of why you and I are doing this work, work with the Gaiman’s Brotherhood is to heal shame so we can move towards having more authentic and meaningful connections, deeper connections, move out of the shallow end into the deep end and have, you know, connection, brotherhood, love, support for one another. And I think trust issues is one of the reasons why we’re not able to establish this. And that might be coming from shame, it might be coming from trauma. These different places where it’s ruptured our ability to trust, whether it’s trusting ourselves or trusting others. So growing up gay, in my opinion, is a trauma. And I think this can cause trust issues. Growing up gay, I think it can cause issues around being able to feel like the world is safe, that the world is accepting. And I think it’s common for us as gay men to carry this stuff into our relationships. And I think because of, like, shame and trauma, it can be really hard to believe that when we bring forward our authentic self, that people are going to stick around and that can lead to us wanting to hide, us not wanting to kind of move in towards intimacy. And Michael, you and I talked about this on our sex and intimacy episode. So that’s definitely one to tune into if you are somebody that struggles with intimacy or the fear of intimacy. And really, trust can be formed through bonding with someone consistently over time. So I think if we’re struggling to be able to move into connection with one another and, like, spend time with one another in these deeper, more intimate places, it’s going to be really hard for us to be able to build trust with one another. And ways to accelerate trust, in my opinion, are going to be vulnerability and authenticity, which is what we talked about in the intimacy episode. And I want people to think about, like, on this episode, Michael, Reno, and I were very vulnerable with you guys, and we bring forth our most authentic selves, and we share our tears and our laughter with you guys. And I want you just to ask yourself right now, like, what is it like to trust us? Do you trust us? You show up each week, you listen to our episodes. Does that mean that you trust us? Right. And I want you to ask, why? Why do you trust us? So take a moment and just think about that. All right? So we have a model that I’ve spoken about previous times on this podcast called the RAM model. So it’s the relationship attachment model, and it is a model by John Van Epp in his research regarding relationship progression. So this is a simple model, how relationships can grow and become healthy, sustainable relationships. It consists of five dynamics that can be pictured as a progression from left to right. So it’s a progressive model. So the first one is to know. So when we’re bonding with someone and we’re getting to know them, we’re going to establish their ability to be able to know them. Knowing is always going to come before trusting. So this is why we’re. We’re including this model in today’s episode, because the next column would be trust. So as you get to know someone, you put together your pieces of knowledge to make a dynamic picture of that person. And the more you know, the better you can begin to trust. The knowing must come first before the trust is developed. The third column is going to be bonding. The third bonding dynamic is relying. So once we know somebody, we can trust them, and once we trust somebody, we can rely on them. And this refers to the action that follows from trust. Reliance grows from the ways you meet another person’s needs as well as how they meet your needs. And I think it’s important to note that in order for us to be able to rely on someone, we have to be willing to be able to show them what our needs are. Right. So when we are in the knowing stage, we’re really getting to know somebody’s needs and we’re sharing with them what our needs are. And when we are able to share in this need exchange, we’re able to kind of trust and we’re able to build this sense of reliance. And then the fourth one is commit. So after we can rely on somebody, we can commit to them. The definition of ownership or belonging in a relationship, that’s what commitment is. The extent to which you feel like you belong to someone and they can belong to you is a measure of the degree of commitment in your relationship. And then the last one that he puts in here is sexual touch. The way he views it is that you go through these four stages and then sexual touches at the end. Not a huge fan of that. I think once you get to know somebody, you can have sexual touch kind of in between each. And I think for even some people, they’re okay with having sex with people before they even enter the knowing stage. And so it’s not a judgment at all. Yeah, there you go. Michael’s got his hand up. So. But this is really just gives you a sense of a different way that you can progressively move in a relationship in order to build trust. So with this being said, before we go into the questions, I. I had a question to precurse this. So what is important for you to get to know somebody where we start talking about trust? Like, let’s unpack a little bit about what you need in order to get to know somebody.

[00:05:59] Michael DiIorio: For me, Yeah, I guess it’s just me here.

[00:06:02] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:06:02] Michael DiIorio: Okay. What do I need to get to know somebody? You know, what’s funny is I was actually thinking about you when you asked the question to the audience of whether they trust us. I was thinking, well, I trust you because of three, four. Four years now of you’re being, you know, you’re super consistent and reliable. And so I trust you with that. Plus all the heart to hearts we’ve had outside of stuff as a friend to that. And I think what I need to get to know somebody. For me, I am very cerebral. So I really like to know how someone thinks things like their sense of humor, like what kinds of things do they think are funny, what motivates them. That to me, when I like, what upsets them, what are their pet peeves? Those are the things that to Me, I feel like I know them more so than general interest. Like what kind of movies you like, what’s your favorite flavor of ice cream? That’s nice. But for me, that, that deeper level is like what makes them tick, how does their brain work? How do they think? What are some of their beliefs? One thing that you had talked about and I love was that intimacy. And at the end of the day, this is really about intimacy. It’s another episode about intimacy. And that is the deeper level is for me, the emotional stuff and the intellectual stuff. So how you think and how you feel. So something could be like a painful moment in your past. If we’re talking about a relationship baggage that maybe you’re still carrying from an ex. And that takes time. Like, you don’t just necessarily throw that out there on the first date. So I would say those kinds of things for me are what, Allow me to say, yeah, okay, I, I know this person. Especially if I can then predict how they’re gonna respond. So like, you know, I’m like, okay, I know that he’s gonna behave in this way because of this circumstance, and it’s correct. I’m like, okay, I know this, I know this man.

[00:07:33] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah. I’m pretty much exactly the same as you. I think the one thing that I would say is in order to get to know somebody, for me, it’s like time spent with them is a big one. And their ability to be authentic, that’s a big piece for me. Like when somebody’s wearing masks or they’re not showing up and they’re keeping things in the shallow end, it’s really, really hard for me to get to know them. And again, part of being an empath is that I can feel people on deep level. So when as soon as somebody’s only willing to bring forward like parts of themselves and it, it feels like really shallow, it’s hard for me to, well, really know trust, and it’s hard for that progression to go forward. And so inauthenticity is like a huge barrier for me to be able to get to know somebody.

[00:08:13] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, I would say a barrier for me is when, if I’m sharing and I’m going a little bit deeper, like step by step, a little bit more vulnerable, and then they’re not matching me at that, then I’m like, it just feels like it’s a one sided conversation or like not even a conversation, but just like I’m revealing. But that doesn’t mean you have to reveal the same thing at the same time. But like, you know, there’s a bit of a back and forth, a tit for tat in a way.

[00:08:33] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:08:34] Michael DiIorio: That’s missing over time. Then I’m just like, okay, well, where’s this going? Like, I’m looking for that deep end, and I’m trying to find it with you, but if I can’t find it and you’re not willing to, like, help me get there, then I can’t know you because then I feel like you’re hiding something.

[00:08:47] Matt Landsiedel: Exactly. Yeah. This is why dating is so frustrating for me.

[00:08:51] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, same.

[00:08:52] Matt Landsiedel: Right. It’s like. And I guess probably why we do this work is because we want to help more gay men feel safer to be their authentic self so that it’s, you know, we can. Dating will be more fulfilling and easier and we. We have more tools in our toolbox, I guess. Right. So. All right, I’m curious for you. What makes it hard for you to build trust in relationships?

[00:09:13] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, the number one thing. There’s a few things, but the number one and still the case is having my trust broken in the past. So I looked at this specifically from a romantic perspective, but I guess you could use this in any way. But I guess I looked at it from the romantic sense. But anyway, the number of times I’ve heard from. Pick any one of my exes, I’ll never do anything to hurt you. We’re going to be together forever. I’m never going to leave you.

And those are words that I’d love to hear. And, you know, I believed them. P.S. folks, I’m single, so FYI, if you didn’t know that. So therefore, none of those things actually came to be. So I was wrong. I was wrong. I trusted them. I believed them. I was vulnerable. I opened up the gates to my heart. I let down the walls. And despite all that, and that isn’t easy, as we all know, I was disappointed. And those disappointments add up and that that can have a compounding effect. I think a lot of people out there know what I’m talking about, you know, being disappointed time after time after time. It’s almost like it’s a callous around your heart, like a calluses, and it keeps you. I think it could very easily keep you from trusting again. And the work is to heal that and to uncallus that. So I think if I didn’t do this kind of work that I have done, and if I wasn’t more aware of the risks of going down that path, I think what would happen is very naturally, very easily for me. Is I don’t need anyone else. I’ve got myself because I don’t disappoint myself or not to that level. So it’s very much a lone wolf thing. It’s like, well, I don’t need anybody else. I got me and I got my own back, which I do. It’s very true. So then it’s very easy for me to say, well, then I don’t need anybody else and that’s that. But then I lose out on all the connection and vulnerability to see what really want.

[00:10:50] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah. It makes me think of kind of like the far ends of the spectrum. Right. You have like hyper independence on one and codependence on the other and then there’s interdependence in the middle, which is this dance of being able to move into connection but not need it for your worth or right. And then the other side is like being able to be on your own. Right. That’s why there’s a positive side to the lone wolf. Yeah. Not all the time, right?

[00:11:13] Michael DiIorio: Yeah. The number of times I’ve said after I’ve been hurt that said I’m never doing this again. Like, all my friends just laugh like, yeah, okay, sure. Because they know that I, I do have that soft spot. I do want to be in a long term relationship. I do want to be loved and I do want to belong to a relationship. So. But that’s always my, fuck it, I’m never doing this again.

[00:11:30] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:11:31] Michael DiIorio: Like just shut everybody out. I’ll just have my casual sex and have fun and that’s that. I will not let people in because the pain and the hurt.

[00:11:38] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah, I feel you. That’s the avoidance side of my attachment style. I have a fearful avoidance, so I anxious and avoidant. So the avoidance side of my attachment is identical. What you just said, like, f**k it, I’m never going to get into a relationship. Like, then we hear that all the time. And I’m sure the listener, viewer is like, yes, I’ve been there. Where, oh, we’re forever till death do us part or all these things. And then, you know, it’s like love. It’s just, it speaks to the impermanence of everything in this world. The only thing that’s permanent is changed. That things are always changing. And that’s for me, that brings up a lot of sadness and a lot of fear almost really, that, you know, if I do meet my soulmate, it’s like, there will be a day where I’m going to die and we are going to part in this physical world and. Right. So there’s, there’s a lot of stuff around this. And I think, you know, I’ve put walls up around my heart for this exact reason. And I think, you know, being young and watching my family break apart, really, my parents split when I was about 10. Like, that was super hard. Like seeing love crumble before your eyes and then being so significantly impacted by it. And so I think I just instilled a lot of, like, beliefs in me that love won’t last, love will lead to pain, you know, people are going to hurt you. Because I, again, I watched my parents constantly hurt each other for years, decades after. Right. Because they had so much resentment and anger and stuff. So, yeah, it was just. So I. I have a lot of core beliefs around that People will betray you, people aren’t trustworthy. No one can have your back, truly, no one will ever really have your back. Like, it’s only you that can have your back. So that’s my hyper independent, lone wolf. Right. So that’s like the foundation of who I am. Which, and this is all my healing work. I’ve been doing this healing work for the last 20 years. Like relational attachment, wounding, healing, which is all really, all my trauma, really, I don’t have much trauma. That’s not relational in nature. And so I’ve had to relearn ways of relating with myself and relating with others. So the things that, you know, make it hard for me to build trust and relationships, and I still, I still struggle with these. Now is one of them is rushing. So the anxious part of me wants to get into the relationship, understand them so well, so I know that they won’t break my trust. Right. And then what I end up doing is I project onto them who I think they are, who I want them to be, and then I end up being disappointed because they’re not that. So it’s almost like this young part inside of me is trying to project onto them, like, be this so that, that way you’re safe. Right. And I’ve fallen for this trap in so many of my relationships. And then three months into the relationship, they prove that, like, oh, you’re not this. You’re not this, like, super safe, 100% perfect person. That. Right. And then I end up feeling disappointed. So I think past disappointments, like what you said, is a really big barrier for me to be able to fully land into love and into relationship. So rushing is a huge one for me. And then I have a lot of core beliefs around reliability. I just feel like I had a ton of unmet needs in childhood that I developed a core belief that people aren’t there for me and they’re not reliable. And I’ve done it all on my own. And I think right now in my life, I’m actually. I’m working through something in my own. In my own therapy around, like, letting the walls down from around my heart, then like, learning to let love in. And I’m realizing that I have a lot of issues around giving and receiving love, like, freely. Like, I have. I’ll have days where I feel good at it, but then I’ll wall up again. So it’s like the dam isn’t flowing, like, or the river isn’t flowing. There’s a dam that keeps kind of going up and down and not allowing me to fully embody love. And I’m realizing that a lot of these things that are, like, built up are really protector parts that have, like, been developed to keep me safe. But I think what I’m going through right now is like a disarming of the protector parts. And then what. Going through that for me feels so vulnerable because it’s like you feel naked in the world. You feel. You feel like you don’t have these things that you’ve used for so long to keep you safe. Yeah, I can’t really describe it in any way other than like, naked or like, vulnerable or scared. A lot of fear, you know, around, like, can I trust people? And this could open up a whole other episode around trusting self. Right. Like, can I trust myself that if someone disappoints me that I’m not going to abandon myself or I’m not going to do exhibit these codependent traits that perpetuate why I feel disappointed by people, you know, so it’s a fine line, though. It’s a fine dance between, like, trusting self and having your own back. But again, being able to move into connection and trust people and trust that they’re going to be there. I think people who have attachment trauma, like myself, like, we need reparative experiences. We need corrective experiences with people where we can go into relationships and. And meet somebody who’s a good quality person that is trustworthy and like, changes your view of. Of men. For me, like, you know, I kind of need that. I need that relational experience that’s like, men can be trustworthy. They will be there for you when you need them. So, yeah, those are some of my big barriers.

[00:16:27] Michael DiIorio: I have a question. Can you have those positive reparative experiences in. Let’s say a platonic relationship with a man. And is that trust transferable then to romantic relationships or are they kinds of separate flavors of trust?

[00:16:40] Matt Landsiedel: No, I think you’re. And that’s what I’m doing right now. So I’m putting myself out there in new ways and building connections that are platonic. And that is allowing me to build a type of what I would call like general trust. It’s, it’s not like intimate trust. Right. I think it can become that and I have like friends with benefits and things that you can kind of bleed into that. But you know, I think what I’m also learning right now is, is the dance of like not putting my eggs all in one basket and then being disappointed when all my eggs are broken in that one basket. So it’s like I’m learning the skill of being able to put a few eggs. I don’t want to just put one. Like that would be for me, that’s like casual sex with, with people. Like a couple eggs would be like maybe a friends with benefits situation where you put a few eggs in each basket. And, and, and then I’m learning that I can have love for somebody that it doesn’t, they don’t have to be my everything or, or my, my full on person because that almost even feels overwhelming for me to put all my eggs in one basket. So. Yeah, so I think I’m learning, I’m learning that relationships can offer me different things in different contexts of the relationship. There’s so many different structures of relationship that we can engage in. And I think that’s what I’m learning right now is how to move in and out of these types of connections.

[00:17:51] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, it’s good to know that because then you can use these other experiences where there’s trust, let’s say with your friends, to kind of borrow from it. I don’t know the word here, but like, borrow that feeling of like feeling vulnerable, trusting in a, in a more intimate relationship, even if it’s. It is a different flavor, truly.

[00:18:07] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:18:07] Michael DiIorio: It’s a good start.

[00:18:08] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:18:09] Michael DiIorio: Yeah.

[00:18:11] Matt Landsiedel: If you’re watching us on YouTube, drop some comments in the comment section. What makes it hard for you to build trust in relationships? Would love to hear some people’s responses and get the dialogue happening in the comment section. And if you’re listening on our, on our favorite podcast platform, just take a moment and think about that question. What makes it hard for you to build trust in relationships? I think it’s a really important thing to have awareness around. And if you’re wanting to continue these conversations or start these conversations with people in our community. You can come join us on the last Thursday of every month in the Gay Men’s Brotherhood Sharing Circles where you’ll have a chance to share your own experience. And we also have our Connection Circles, which happen on the second Thursday of every month, and our smaller, more intimate breakout rooms where you can discuss this topic on trust and the podcast with other members of our community as well. So you can go to gaymensbrotherhood.com and check out our ‘Events’ section to RSVP. If you don’t have Facebook, you can also get on our email list and we’ll email you the zoom links. All right. So what is required for you to build trust with someone, Michael?

[00:19:11] Michael DiIorio: I love the relationship attachment model. So the knowing, that’s a big piece. But I guess there’s varying levels of trust. When I was thinking about this question, there’s like, like a five point scale, right? Everyone’s going to be a bit different, but I’ll kind of tell you mine. So, you know, at the very minimum, do I trust that you’ll text me back?

[00:19:27] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, right.

[00:19:28] Michael DiIorio: At a relatively decent time, like not days later. Then do I trust that you’re going to show up on time? So if you say, hey, we’re going to meet up at 7:00 on Friday, do I trust you’re actually showing us on Friday? Or do you show a trend of not showing up, canceling last minute, being an hour late every time without any kind of, without any kind of a warning? Then there’s the element of like, you know, would I trust somebody to stay in my house while I, you know, went away for the night and like, okay, you can just stay here and I’ll go over here, like, go over it. Do I trust them in my house? Do I trust them? You know, and it goes on. You know, a big phase of trust with my partners has been like, do I trust you with my phone? Like with a pin on my phone? I say, oh yeah, just go on my phone and like, check this for me. And they’re like, whoa, really? I’m like, yeah, go ahead. And that’s like an element of like, oh, wow, this person really trusts me. And same if someone did that for me, like, oh, you know, just go on my phone and do this for me. I would, I would feel very honored because to me that’s such a big thing. And then there’s like the bigger things, like trusting somebody with my deepest insecurities, my deepest fears, and then I guess the biggest one would be, like, trusting someone to hold me in my absolute lowest, in my absolute worst, whatever that might look like. That would be the ideal, and that’s, like, the top of the mountain for me. I would say, overall, I have learned to be a fairly. I don’t want to say trusting person. I mean, I am trusting, but, like, I will give people many opportunities to show me that they are trustworthy, because I think trust is earned. My trust is earned. You don’t just get it right off the bat, but I will give you lots of opportunities to do that. I will give you plenty of opportunities to show me that you are trustworthy. And let’s see what you got. So that’s kind of how I look at, like, okay, let’s see what you got. We’re gonna go really slow. We’re not gonna. We’re not gonna go too far too fast, because to your point, it. You know, it can’t be rushed. And what. I’m fine with trust. And the thing that I find so annoying with it is it’s such a slow burn or slow build and a fast burn.

[00:21:13] Matt Landsiedel: Oh, yeah.

[00:21:13] Michael DiIorio: Like, brick by brick by brick. There’s no shorts, but, like, that wall will come down real quick.

[00:21:19] Matt Landsiedel: Oh, yeah, me too. Me too. Like, I’m bad for that. Like, that’s like a. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of, you know, time and energy to build my trust. And then it could be broken in, like, one lie. Like, if I catch somebody in a lie, it’s, like, done.

[00:21:35] Michael DiIorio: Yeah.

[00:21:36] Matt Landsiedel: Which is something that I’m like. I’m like, is that healthy or is that. I’m trying to, like, reconcile that, but I’m like, it depends on context. It depends on the lie. Like, there’s so many things that come into play, but I don’t do well with lying. Like, I’m. I can handle any truth you bring to me. Like, if you cheated on me, bring it to me. But if I find out myself that you cheated on me and you didn’t bring it to me, like, oh, like, we’re. We’re so done. There’s no forgiveness.

[00:21:58] Michael DiIorio: I’ve been on the other side of that. Like, the one who did something wrong, not necessarily cheated, but I remember that feeling of being so afraid. Even though I knew that that’s what he wanted, I still. It was. Maybe it was shame that I was like, I don’t. I would be too ashamed to actually say. Say what I did, but I kind of get it. Like, I kind of get why people lie in that moment of fear. Like, I’ve been in shoes before. And while I may say the same thing as you, like, you could tell me anything. I also totally get it and empathize with the fact that some, Some people, even though we say those words, they don’t trust that. That. That you mean it.

[00:22:32] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Do you test your partners in any way for trust, conscious or unconscious?

[00:22:40] Michael DiIorio: Not consciously. I’m trying to think of it unconsciously. I mean, I will know the test when it happens, but I don’t. I don’t sit there ahead of time and plan it out and say, okay, this is going to be a test for them. But I can pick up on lies fairly easily. And if I sense something is immense, I have no problem, like, asking. And if they get very defensive, that, for me is like a red flag. Like, why are you getting so defensive?

[00:23:00] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:23:01] Michael DiIorio: So I think, like, the tests come in just every day, like, as you get to know somebody. That’s what I mean. I give them lots of opportunities. So I give them lots of opportunities to, like, succeed and pass the test, but they also have lots of opportunities to fail. And to your point, if it’s like a small level failure, I can easily forgive that. I can move past it, but it’s where they accumulate, where they become a trend, or if it’s a big level.

[00:23:23] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I’m very observant in my relationships. I don’t test consciously. I think unconsciously I probably do. I test people’s commitment to me. I test their reliability. It’ll be like, you know, but then what. What I’m observing is like, are they on time? Do they text back when they say they’re going to text back, are they, like, do their words match their actions? So I’m always observing these sorts of things, and then I’m picking out incongruencies. But what can happen, though, is this whole, like, model or this whole, like, mentality of, like, what you look for, you will find can become the reality. And it’s like, if you’re always nitpicking in the relationship and looking for reasons why they’re not trustworthy, the person will respond energetically to that energy and. Right. So I sometimes have created my own fears in my relationships by focusing on the thing that I don’t want to happen. So I’ve had to learn how to also. And that’s. That’s a trauma response, in my opinion. That’s me leaving my center to check in their world to make sure they’re a good, safe person, right. When really it’s like I’m. I’m working on how to stay in here in like, you know, regardless of whether they’re going to cheat on me, they’re going to lie, they’re going to do these things. Those things are going to happen. Can I stay in my center and just let, let things come to the surface that are going to surface. You know what I mean? Like, if somebody’s a bad person and I’m very an intuitive person, so I’ll usually know and. But the thing for me is I have to actually believe my intuition in all the relationships I’ve been in with really challenging men. I’ve always felt it from the get go intuitively, but I didn’t trust my own intuition, right. So my work is to trust my own intuition because I think that’s, that’s where my goal is. Because my intuition’s never wrong. Like truly, it’s never wrong. Yeah.

Like, it can be wrong when it’s ego disguising itself as intuition and it’s fear. Right. But when, when it’s truly intuition, I’m actually tuned into my intuition. My intuition’s never wrong.

[00:25:13] Michael DiIorio: Would your intuition tell you, for example, if someone is like your soulmate?

[00:25:18] Matt Landsiedel: Well, what my intuition would tell me that there’s many soulmates, right. I think you’re a soulmate. Right. You’ve come into my life and like, we’re just like, the ease in which, which we connect is like soulmate type ease, connection, you know, and we just flow. So I think we have many soul mates. But if somebody was a romantic soulmate. Yeah, for sure. Because I’ve always had a feeling when I date people. I think I’ve said this on previous podcasts before. I always have a feeling that I’m cheating on the person that is my person in this world. I think I have a person and I just haven’t met him yet. And I think I’m preparing to meet him, he’s preparing to meet me, and I think in the next few years, I’ll meet him. I don’t think it’s going to happen soon. And so anytime I’ve ever dated, I’ve felt this little. It’s just a micro feeling. It’s not huge, but it’s a feeling of like, this isn’t your person. Like, this is like a. A placeholder or something like that. And it feels like I’m cheating on the person that I’m meant to be with. That’s hard to describe, but that’s the best I can describe it, but it’s kind of like a. Almost like they’re.

[00:26:12] Michael DiIorio: They’re a necessary stepping stone to that.

[00:26:14] Matt Landsiedel: Exactly. Like an evolution. And that’s why I think we have many soul mates, like the guys that I’ve dated, where I’ve had a connection, where they’ve helped me heal a part of myself that’s a soulmate connection, or you could even call it a twin flame, depending on how you want to look at it. But I think that these people are here to help me evolve into my. My destiny. Right into. So I think when I do meet this guy, I think I’m going to look at him and I’ll know right away.

[00:26:36] Michael DiIorio: I hope that’s what I want. I’m like, I just want to know. I don’t want to guess.

[00:26:40] Matt Landsiedel: Are you? Yeah. If you’re guessing, it’s not the person that would be my. I think my intuition will say, yep, this is him. And I’ll know based off of a familiar imprint that I feel like sometimes I’ll, like, do some, like, meditations or I’ll tune in and I’ll be like, let me feel what this guy feels like. Like, what is. What is it going to feel like when I meet him? And I can feel the feeling that I’m going to feel, you know? Yeah.

Okay. So, yeah. Similar answers to you. I think I have a trust cup, and I give an empty cup to people and they. They build trust. I’ve never understood those people that just give a full cup of trust to people, like, right off the hop. Maybe there’s a naivety to that, or maybe I’m traumatized.

[00:27:19] Michael DiIorio: I don’t know.

[00:27:20] Matt Landsiedel: I’m. Either way, I’m not giving somebody a full cup of my trust. They’ll have an empty cup and they can just show me who they are over time. So I think what’s required for me to build trust with somebody is like, pacing. Like pacing a relationship taking time, which is why the anxious side of my attachment always gets me in trouble. I have to really be mindful of that and. And pace myself. Slow down. I think I learn who somebody is, and this has always been a fairly good measurement. Around three months. That’s when somebody starts to, you know, because that’s when, especially as gay men, like, that’s when we start to put. Bring our Personas down and our walls down, and we can’t hold it together anymore. We can’t hold perfectionism together. And we start showing anger, we start showing fear. We start showing these things in our relationships, and that’s why a lot of guys ghost after a month, right? And they’re like, oh, they’re seeing too much of me. I got to get the hell out of here. Right? So I usually by the three-month mark, that’s when I can take a good measurement of who somebody is. And so that’s a big thing for me is I gotta learn that. That’s the skill that I’ve been trying to master is how to slow down my relationships. Because early stages of relating, it can feel intoxicating and like all the oxytocin is flooding your body and you’re just like, oh my God, this feels so good. The dopamine, the good sex, and all that. And it can feel hard not to like, want to just spend all your time with them, and rush the relationship. But I think that’s the romanticizing, right? We project onto them the character we want them to play in our love fantasy. And it’s. It can be dangerous, for sure. Although very fun and intoxicating, it can be very dangerous at the same time.

[00:28:51] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, I do that all the time. And it’s that, that’s why I love the relationship attachment model is because it kind of reminds me like, oh, wait a minute, I’m in my mind, like, we’re already like walking down the aisle. Like, I don’t even know. Yeah, right. But yeah, my brain loves to just fill in all the blanks and it’s, you know, always in a very romantic, rose-colored glasses kind of way. But I get it. It’s exactly as you said. It is very intoxicating and it’s lovely to go down that fantasy road as long as, you know it’s a fantasy road and you actually don’t take action from that, but you recognize, okay, I’m going down a fantasy road. Bring it back down. And then like in reality, let’s go on some more dates. Let’s get to know each other. Let me, let me again give you some opportunities to show me who you are, truly. Like, show me who you are on a bad day. That’s what I want to see. Like, I want to see you on a bad day at work when you’re stressed and you’re like hating on the world. Show me that guy.

[00:29:35] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, exactly. Show me how you cope with stress. That’s what I want to see, how somebody copes with their stress. Because relationships are stressful and I want to see how you cope if you turn to alcohol, drugs, you know, these sorts of things. Like, I need to know those things ahead of time.

[00:29:49] Michael DiIorio: Exactly.

[00:29:50] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. So a couple other things is they take a genuine interest in me. Like when somebody, you know, really shows me interest and they, they want, they ask me a lot of questions. Like I know that they’re, they’re actually taking an interest in me and it allows me to establish trust, I think. I tend to get into connections where I’m the list listener always and it’s a safer thing for me. It’s probably like a thing I do consciously or unconsciously, but I’m always listening, even in my friendships. And a lot of things I’m usually not the one talking. So I’ve had to learn like, no, it’s okay for like me to like, you know, be the center of attention in this moment. Like let them ask me questions so that I know is when the person’s not hogging all of the attention on them. Like that’s a person I can trust because there’s going to be a dance of like, you know, they want to ask me questions, I want to ask them questions. So sharing air time is a, is a big one. Reliability, that’s huge. Like, and I think that’s, you know, trust and reliability. It’s. I know it says trust and then rely, but they kind of go hand in hand. It’s like a teeter-totter. Like when somebody’s reliable, I can trust them and when somebody’s, when I can trust someone, I can rely on them. So they, they do really. I would almost see them as happening at the same time. Not like you build fully trust for someone and then you rely on them. So I think that with these stages, I think we can also go back and forth between stages like knowing and trusting. Right?

[00:31:03] Michael DiIorio: Yeah. It’s almost like as one increases, the other one increases at the same time. But just they both kind of go like this. Right?

[00:31:10] Matt Landsiedel: Exactly. Yeah. Transparency is huge for me just because I do come from more of like a disorganized attachment, which is a fear-based attachment style. And I can be suspicious in my relationships that people are going to betray me or hurt me. So I think it’s really important to, for people to be transparent with me, at least in the early stages, like, let me know what’s up, you know, like hiding your phone and things like that. Like those are things that I look for. I’m like, why are they like hiding their phone or turning their phone when they enter their pin or these, you know what I mean? Like those sort of things, like what do they have to hide? Will immediately, like red flags will go off in my Mind. And then I wrote down, they are kind in word and action. And kindness is a big thing for me. Again, part of being demisexual is I can feel people. I can. I’m attracted to their emotional, like, template, who they are in an emotional. As an emotional person. So kindness, when somebody’s kind and they do kind things and not just say kind things like their actions match it, they follow up with. With their actions, I think that’s a big thing. And I see that in somebody. I’m like, oh, like, this is a trustworthy person. Like, they show up in the same way in their actions as they do in their words. That’s big.

[00:32:17] Michael DiIorio: That’s so sexy.

[00:32:18] Matt Landsiedel: Oh, my God. It’s like, so sexy. Yeah.

[00:32:20] Michael DiIorio: I call that integrity.

[00:32:21] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:32:23] Michael DiIorio: Man with integrity is mature.

[00:32:26] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I love that, actually. Integrity is such a big one. Yeah. And I’ve actually dated a few guys that are pretty in. What would be the word for that? Integris.

[00:32:34] Michael DiIorio: I think so. Yeah.

[00:32:35] Matt Landsiedel: Tigris. And it is a very, very important thing. Yeah. Lastly, I just put. They take care of my body. I think the way, like, a guy holds me, cuddles, like, he nurtures me, like he, you know, in. In sex, he’s checking in, like, does this feel good for you? Are you enjoying this? Like, you know, he cares about my pleasure experience the way my body’s feeling. I think that’s just so important.

[00:32:57] Michael DiIorio: Those are great examples. I like that. I would. I would agree with all those.

[00:33:00] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:33:01] Michael DiIorio: Yeah. For the opportunities to trust. I want to add that it’s both, for me, a practical thing and in the emotional things, so the practical things count. So, like, if you say to me, oh, I’m gonna pick up dinner on Friday, and, like, you actually show up and you pick up dinner on Friday, like, I know it’s not a big thing, but that counts. That. That goes with the piggy bank of trust for me. And it’s a big one just as much as it would count for, like, you know, trusting, like, need me to trust you with, you know, something very deep, deep with me or like a secret or something that I’m struggling with. That counts just as much. So it is. That is a practical thing as a while, not just emotional.

[00:33:37] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I agree. For sure. All right. If you are looking to accelerate your personal development journey and work on any trust issues that you might have, you can check out our Coaching Collection. You can learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting instant access 45 + premium personal development coaching Videos created by us as well as our Healing Your Shame and Building Better Relationships courses. You can head over to gaming going deeper.com for more information and those two courses would actually be really great for somebody that is struggling with whether it’s self trust or putting yourself out there to be able to trust again. Off the top, I said if we’re struggling with being able to trust people like it’s likely that we have. We’re carrying something inside of us that feels like we can’t trust people or we feel ashamed. So we don’t want to put ourselves out there there to even be able to develop trust with somebody. Healing or shame course would be great, a great start for that. Just to get a understanding and awareness around your own shame and then building better relationships. We’re giving you tons of great tangible tools and skills on how to build secure relationships. And so yeah, you can head over to gaymengoingdeeper.com for more information about that. All right, the big kahuna. I want to, I’m curious for you, have you ever had your trust broken in a relationship? And I’m curious, what did it take for you to rebuild trust if you chose to go that path?

[00:34:55] Michael DiIorio: Yes. As I mentioned in the beginning, those betrayals, if you want to call them that, the broken trust has happened on small levels and medium size and big ones as well. On the big ones, I would say, I guess with all of them it just takes time. And I’m going to say this from being the one who has betrayed or has broken the trust with my partner as well. There’s so much pain and guilt and shame. You just want to make it all better. You just want to fix it as much as you can. I’ve been there. Even on the other side of it, I’m like, I wish I can trust you right now, but I just, I don’t. And so it does take time. I think that if it’s, if it’s something very painful, which that happened for me, I cannot tell you how much I cry and just that crying is, is necessary. It’s. It’s pain and you just cry it out. You’re patient with yourself. If we are going to repair the trust, there needs to be an authentic apology on his end. Yeah, if he’s broke the broke it, authentic apology, which we’ve, we’ve talked about that in the past. And then on my end there needs to be an authentic forgiveness. Not like a, okay, I forgive you, but like a real, I’m willing to not forget, not forget, but to forgive which are different things. And so two things are required there. There needs to be authentic apology and then an authentic acceptance of that apology or forgiveness of. Of the betrayal.

[00:36:11] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:36:11] Michael DiIorio: Not every relationship has recovered from that. Some of them, that was the end. If it was a big betrayal, that was it. Or it never really fully came back. Like, we tried and it just. Once the trust was gone. It was. It was gone. And we couldn’t really make that magic again, which is. It’s heartbreaking. It really is heartbreaking for me to think of the amazing partners I’ve had. I’ve had great relationships, and in some cases, I can pinpoint exactly where the relationship ended, even if it was years before it actually ended. Like, oh, it was that moment right there that I stopped. Something switched for me, and from there on I was just downhill, downhill, downhill, until eventually it just died.

[00:36:48] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:36:48] Michael DiIorio: So these are things that, you know, you really. It’s really important topic because as I said, it takes. It takes just a second, a second decision to lie. So. And I have been on the other side of it.

[00:36:58] Matt Landsiedel: So.

[00:36:58] Michael DiIorio: Yeah. I think the other thing I would add is whether you stay or go, there is a mourning period. There is a grieving period. And to allow that to be there, like, allow it to be sad, allow yourself to be angry, allow yourself to feel whatever it is. Like, I would look at it just as you would losing a loved one. Like, you’re mourning something. There’s a loss there. Even if you are going to stay together, let it be sad. What helps me, though? Because it would be easy for me to stay there again because I could just be like, okay, well, I got my own back. Never mind. Off you go. See you later. Next. Even if I’m not with them, I still want to forgive them because I don’t want to carry that resentment. So.

[00:37:31] Matt Landsiedel: Exactly.

[00:37:31] Michael DiIorio: I have to ask myself, for me, what is the alternative here? The alternative is that I carry this resentment and anger for the rest of my life. Yeah, that’s not the life I want to live. That’s not the man I want to be. Because I know I’m just going to carry that with me into the next relationship. So for me, the forgiveness is for me at, like, eventually, like, yes, you know, I forgive them. But ultimately, I don’t want to keep reliving this in my mind over and over and over again. I want to carry this baggage with me eventually. So it gets to that point where I’m like, I need to do this. I need to forgive. I need to move on. Especially if I want to if I want to be in another relationship. So that. That helps me to rebuild the trust.

[00:38:04] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah. That’s so huge what you’re saying. I just think that a breach of trust creates heart closure.

[00:38:10] Michael DiIorio: Yeah.

[00:38:11] Matt Landsiedel: And if we don’t do that work, which is forgiveness, whether it’s you’re doing it in the relationship or you’re doing it once you’ve ended the relationship, the forgiveness is so, so important because otherwise we carry that broken heart and that walled up heart, closed down heart, whatever you want to call it, we carry that into our next relationship.

[00:38:30] Michael DiIorio: And even if you don’t have another relationship, it just becomes part of who you are. Like, you become this resentful, cynical, angry, closed-off person. And that’s just not the life I want to have for me, it’s not the person I want to be. So then it becomes a little bit easier, especially if I can sense it happening. Then I’m like, okay, wait, this is not. This is not who I want to be, Michael.

[00:38:47] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, this is where I struggle. This is my struggle for sure. And I think, you know, have you ever had my trust broken? Yeah, it was within my family system. It was early stages, from a very young age. And I made a deal with myself at probably 8 or 9 years old that I will never give somebody control over how I feel. I remember even like thinking and feeling those exact feelings, like these two people are like destroying my life right now. And everything’s changing around me. So I’m never ever going to allow someone to do that to me ever again. So then I had these massive walls around my heart growing up and still do, really, at the end of the day, like, I’m still trying to bring these freaking walls down. And they’re. They’re so high some days and some days they’re not right. Like it’s never a thing where they’re just. Walls are static and they stay there. It’s like there’s. They’re dynamic and they’re moving and they’re shifting and with different people, they’re different and, and all these things. But. So, yeah, I think it’s tough. It’s very tough. And I think rebuilding trust, it. There’s an element that you need the other person on board to rebuild the trust with you. And if that’s not happening, like, it’s impossible. And I think that’s where I struggle with my parents and repairing that is. They haven’t come into the connection in the way that I need them to in order to have that repair. Right. So there’s been a long drawn out of holding on to that because they haven’t been able to meet me at that place. And so I’ve. I’ve done a lot of this work with therapists and, like, you know, almost like surrogate parents where I’ve done this work with. And the other person has to be. And if anything, the other person, if they’ve broken your trust, they need to be the one almost piloting the mission of let’s build, rebuild trust together. You know what I mean? Like, I think they should be taking more of the responsibility and showing that they want to make this work. And so, yeah, it’s a tricky area. I think it’s. It’s tough. So I would. I just wrote down there are certain breaches of trust I cannot look past, and I would need to end the relationship. And I’m speaking more romantically or even in, I guess, friendships if certain things are done. It’s like, I don’t want to repair this. I feel like it’s going to be too much effort to try and repair this. And those are like, I guess, breaches where it’s. Maybe there’s premeditation, where it’s like, you know, and there wasn’t impulsivity attached to it. Like, again, you think about cheating, like impulsive cheating versus premeditated cheating or affairs, like, very different flavors of cheating for me. What would that look like? Things like that. And then there’s a little sliver of compassion in there for me that I. That I can really tune into, which is really looking at it through the lens of I’m fallible, you’re fallible. I’ve been a perpetrator, and I’ve also been a victim. Right. Like, I’ve. I’ve played both roles as well, and I think it will always be that way. And sometimes I’ve perpetrated on somebody and I didn’t even know I did because we’re constantly in relational dynamic with people where we could be hurting them and not even know. We don’t know. I don’t know what people’s needs are. I don’t know what their soft spots or vulnerabilities are. And I could be showing up just being me, and I could be perpetrating. Right. And I. So I think it’s. It’s important for me to allocate a certain amount of compassion for the human experience that we’re. We’re all really trying our best. I like to think some days I don’t think that, but I try and think that that we’re all trying our.

[00:41:59] Michael DiIorio: Best and best is a moving target.

[00:42:02] Matt Landsiedel: Best as a moving target, exactly.

[00:42:04] Michael DiIorio: Yeah.

[00:42:04] Matt Landsiedel: So there is, there is that part of me that, you know that we’re all vulnerable. We’re all really scared in relationships and we’re all trying to get our needs met in sometimes the toxic, manipulative ways we were taught by our families or our parents and like. Right. So there’s so many moving parts to this. I think it’s easy to say, oh, I’m just going to cut them out of my life, but it’s like, can I try and work on, you know, things like forgiveness? So, yeah, forgiveness versus rebuilding trust. And I think I can do forgiveness on my own and I can also do it in the relationship. And I think rebuilding trust is a commitment to staying in the relationship to work on forgiveness and to work on, you know, new ways of relating to that person that can accommodate the betrayal or the hurt or whatever’s present.

[00:42:52] Michael DiIorio: You know, have you been the one in a relationship to betray the trust, which therefore ends up leading to the end of the relationship?

[00:42:59] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I think it was in both cases that I can think of that come to my mind right away. Very challenging relationships. A lot of toxicity on both parts that we were exhibiting trauma, bonding and playing out trauma and stuff. I think it was a ping-pong dance. I was never, I’ve never been in a relationship where like, I did this horrible thing and they were like, perfect and you know, like, if it’s ever really been like that, it’s been like kind of these things where we’re betraying each other’s trust accumulatively. And so, yeah, so both. And that’s why I say I try and get into that energy of like, oh, my God, I’ve acted from my trauma a lot in my life and would I want somebody to hold that on me and like, say this person, he’s a horrible person. No, I wouldn’t want that. Did he do something horrible? Sure. Right. And I think so. That’s where I would want somebody’s forgiveness. But I also feel like if I broke somebody’s trust enough, I don’t know if I’d want to stay in that relationship with them to repair it, even if I was the one that. That perpetrated. Because I feel like it can make a relationship so challenging after to deal with that. And I also think it can create intimacy and it can create healing and bonding. So, you know, it depends. There’s so much context that needs to be looked at here. And therapy. Therapy couples work can really help with this. Like, you know, having somebody that can guide you through the journey of rupture and repair. I call it. Like, in relationships, we’re all always rupturing and we’re always repairing. And some of us are really good at rupturing and really bad at repairing. And we need to learn the skills of repair and what that looks like. And it’s tough. Yeah, definitely can be.

All right, well, yeah, thanks again for coming on and sharing your perspectives. Always appreciate them. And thank you to our listener, viewer for joining us in yet another episode and just remembering that this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer-supported. If you enjoy what we’re creating, you can support by making a donation to the show using the link in our show notes. Or if you’re watching on YouTube, you can tap the thanks button and you can make a donation to us that way. And also to support us, you can subscribe to the early access option on Apple and listen ad-free. And you’ll gain early access to all of our episodes when they’re released or when they’re set up, I guess. And all your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. And we do thank you in advance and come and join us in our Connection Circles and have this conversation. I’m sure a lot of us out there are relating to this topic about trust, so we want to hear what you have to say about trust. You can check out everything GMB [email protected] Much love everybody!